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Author Topic: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...  (Read 545435 times)

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Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1755 on: April 19, 2007, 06:25:35 AM »

Faith starts with something (which or who may not be proven) which leads to other beliefs.  Faith is a kind of placeholder.  It stands in place of, or sometimes in spite of, other evidence, until the belief can be proven.

For the last time, NOTHING IS PROVEN.  Deduction proves things only in the context of the logical form of its arguments.  Inductive reasoning, as I said, leads us to be able to act on something based on the assessment of its probability.  When you justifiably think something is likely and you act on it, you have arrived at that belief via reason, not faith.  Faith is absolutely unnecessary for belief.  If you are talking about trust or confidence, then say "trust" or "confidence."  They are perfectly good words.  Use them.

Why am I harping on this?  Well, because about a thousand times over I have seen equivocation from theists on this.  They water down the definition of "faith" enough that they can say it's about the same as trust or confidence, and then turn around and say "See?  Atheists have faith too!  They are on no more solid ground than us!" which is absurd.  Believing that it's safe to cross the street when you have a signal is a fundamentally different thing than believing that there is a supernatural entity whose existence is untestable but yet created the universe and everything in it, and might send you to tell if you don't worship his dead son. 
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dharveymi

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1756 on: April 19, 2007, 08:24:26 AM »

Atheists have faith too!  They are on no more solid ground than us!" which is absurd.  Believing that it's safe to cross the street when you have a signal is a fundamentally different thing than believing that there is a supernatural entity whose existence is untestable but yet created the universe and everything in it, and might send you to tell if you don't worship his dead son. 

I don't think it's watering down the definition.  It is the definition.  You may not like it, but the Bible is very clear.  I made it clear that I do not have faith that God exists, I assume God exists.  I have faith in God.  Jesus is not dead.  God did create the universe, Paul says from nothing, many physicists agree.  Although it is a bit complicated, one should worship God alone.  God will never send you to "tell."  If you mean hell, you're already there, he wants to get you out.  If he doesn't you'll die.

I do think you are right and that we cannot agree.  I'm sorry about that, lets not keep going over it.
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Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1757 on: April 19, 2007, 08:45:56 AM »

I don't think it's watering down the definition.  It is the definition.  You may not like it, but the Bible is very clear.

Why on earth should I care what the Bible says on the matter?  The Bible is not a dictionary. 

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I made it clear that I do not have faith that God exists, I assume God exists.

Same thing. 

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God will never send you to "tell."  If you mean hell, you're already there, he wants to get you out.  If he doesn't you'll die.

Then frankly, God is an asshole.  Only an asshole would put people in hell and then demand that they believe in him in order to take them out. 

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I do think you are right and that we cannot agree.  I'm sorry about that, lets not keep going over it.

Okay, just please stop defining words to fit your theology. 
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theCelestrian

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1758 on: April 19, 2007, 08:55:45 AM »

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God will never send you to "tell."

When the grammar/typographical police start coming out to score "points" in the discussion, I think it's safe to assume that the constructiveness of said discussion is over.  That is, however, just my opinion (or claim), and can only offer the direction the thread is turning as evidence of my claim.

....since the burden of proof, rests upon me, the claimant.  :wink:  Let me make sure I structure this properly since I noticed this thread has been focusing on proper logical syntax.  "Since the Grammar/Typo Police have come to score "points" in the discussion, the usefullness of the current track of said disucssion is over."

...but I'm sure like the Phoenix this thread is, something new and interesting will rise from the ashes.

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Who is this Muslim guy posting recently? I have just ignored him permanently, as he is far too radical and just....OUT THERE.

Really?  I know you like to play "devil's advocate," Brokor, and that you and I have a mutual understanding (I think), but is he really that bad? ;)

I don't know, I think he's been pretty even-keeled so far.  It's refreshing to see someone who is a follower of Islam put their two cents in here, as I think the "faith" is drastically under-represented among libertarians, and have communicated such to him.

I think it's pretty admirable that he's clearly said that "preaching is useless," and I haven't seen anything that I can read to be an attempt to convert anyone to Islam, just posts attempting to clarify logical syntax and debating whether or not the existence of God is either a claim, or a premise.... an assertion or an assumption.

...it's been an interesting read thus far.

----------------------------------------

"Two Christians, a Muslim, an agnostic, and a few atheists walk into a bar..."






(edit: capitalized "Muslim" as I believe that is the correct spelling as a noun.  As an agnostic, I don't care about capital "A"... doubt the atheists will either.)

(2nd edit:  Oh yeah..... followers of Islam don't drink.  My bad MuslimNonarchist. :? )
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 09:06:48 AM by theCelestrian »
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ladyattis

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1759 on: April 19, 2007, 08:55:59 AM »

Rillion, Rillion, Rillion... YOU GOTTA KISS HANK'S ASS! Come now! :lol:

-- Brede
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1760 on: April 19, 2007, 09:30:55 AM »

The religious nutbags all come out clammering, looking for some reason to justify their delusions.

Markuzik beat me to it; the burden of proof is on the hands of the religious zealots to prove God. I cannot prove a negative; that being something which does not exist. :P

Who is this Muslim guy posting recently? I have just ignored him permanently, as he is far too radical and just....OUT THERE. So, Muslim- please take no offense, but you are annoying me with your blind devotion and ignorance. Please feel free to return the favor.



Can't respond to his reasoning, huh Brokor??  Just another non-religious nutbag who can't support his position...

Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1761 on: April 19, 2007, 09:46:55 AM »

Rillion, Rillion, Rillion... YOU GOTTA KISS HANK'S ASS! Come now! :lol:

-- Brede

Looks like Hank is taking karma from me in an effort to make me kiss his ass. 
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1762 on: April 19, 2007, 11:30:46 AM »

I never implied that. It means that they have acquired values and beliefs, which at some level required choices to be made. Their "knee jerk" (unconscious) reactions are just that: unconscious.

I never denied that choices are made.  However, I think that for most of us, values are cultivated rather than acquired.  Everybody except psychopaths has the capacity to have aversion to suffering, for example, but people who are opposed to animal testing (for another example) have had that aversion cultivated and applied to a specific group.
 

If it's true that an aversion to suffering is genetically hardwired, then it is not a moral intuition, but an evolved instinct. Upon reflection of this feeling, people may attempt to justify it though individual moral reasoning or through an attempt to make it conform to the values of their culture. By the same process, they may attempt to justify actions that defy this feeling under certain circumstances, thereby creating moral intuitions that can either reinforce or cancel out an inherited instinct.

I can give you a related personal example that you may find interesting. Since early childhood while I was able to enjoy eating meat, I felt a growing conflict about killing animals in order to do so, that I experienced as a mild revolution, accompanied by troubling cannibalistic self image. As a young adult, I found myself progressively eating less red meat, until I noticed that I wasn't eating it at all. Within a year or two, I followed the same pattern with poultry. I still eat fish, although it bothers me, it's to a lesser extent.( I must feel a greater affinity to the warm blooded animals.)

People always ask me if I avoid meat for health reasons, but I deny that there is any nutritional benefit to my behavior and that, in fact, for the most part, the opposite is true.

Now here is the part that may shed light on the way I think:

People then ask me if I do it for religious or moral reasons and I have always denied having any moral beliefs that would cause this aversion to harming animals and that it was strictly a non-moral empathy for animals that I am fully capable of ignoring, without moral guilt, should it become necessary for me to kill animals.

For me, there has never been any confusion between natural drives and moral intuition, although I can see how it may confuse some people. I notice that some people, especially the religious, have a strong desire to believe that morality is somehow inherent to their God given instincts, as exemplified by their insistence that moral truth must come from the "heart" and that evil is the product of thinking for one's self. I regard materialism as another form of religion, that replaces God with evolution, that regards free will and rational morality as delusions which cause evil and that moral truth must come from the "heart" in the form of evolved instinct.

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The question is not simple, but simplistic. You're showing the root of your confusion in that question, which is based on the implied assumption that a genetically hardwired reaction can be right, wrong, a concept or even based on a concept at all.

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No no no no no no no!  I am saying that a genetically hardwired reaction can be about  what is right or wrong.  That's a very important difference.


That it may or may not coincide with what's right or wrong is only further evidence that it is non-moral.

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An inborn(genetically acquired) instinct manifests as a feeling or emotion, not a concept.
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I'm not sure how you're defining "concept" here, but my position is:

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a) that there are such things as moral emotions, that is emotions which cause us to make moral judgements (judgements about right and wrong)

1. If the feeling comes from an inborn drive, it's an instinct, but not a moral intuition.
2. If the feeling is a moral intuition, it is the result of an unconscious moral judgment, not the cause of one.

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b) those moral judgments which stem from the moral emotions are intuitive.

That's backwards, although sometimes inherited instinctive drives may cause someone to rationalise along these lines:

1. Something feels good/bad.
2. If it feels good/bad it must be right/wrong.

This type of moral reasoning results in the reinforcement of instinctive inherited drives with moral intuition.

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c) moral emotions are evolved.

Only the capacity for moral intuition is an evolved trait. The moral intuition varies with one's values.

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d) moral reasoning is not divorced from moral emotions, but does not always (or even usually) occur when moral judgements are made.

That true.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1763 on: April 19, 2007, 11:35:15 AM »

Okay markuzick, I think that we are actually a lot closer to agreeing than not, and definitions of terms are a bigger barrier than they need to be.  I believe that intuitions can be instinctive (that is, inborn) whereas you apparently do not.  That seems to be the biggest obstacle, but we both seem to grant that there are evolved, emotional aspects to morality and reasoned ones as well.
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1764 on: April 19, 2007, 11:50:08 AM »

The religious nutbags all come out clammering, looking for some reason to justify their delusions.

Markuzik beat me to it; the burden of proof is on the hands of the religious zealots to prove God. I cannot prove a negative; that being something which does not exist. :P

Who is this Muslim guy posting recently? I have just ignored him permanently, as he is far too radical and just....OUT THERE. So, Muslim- please take no offense, but you are annoying me with your blind devotion and ignorance. Please feel free to return the favor.



Please act like an adult. There's no reason to start calling people nutbags, just because you think they have mistaken beliefs. What does that accomplish? It doesn't add any credibility to your position. If you don't enjoy religious debate, then don't. Just concentrate on areas where you share some commonality.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

ladyattis

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1765 on: April 19, 2007, 12:09:32 PM »

Aquinas was heavily influenced by Ibn Rushd, an Islamic Philosopher, and as I said, in Islam we believe that morality is derived from the fitra, or "nature" of man.
Nature as in a human's ability to reason or nature as in a metaphysical essence that defines moralness? I don't buy the latter, but I accept the former.

-- Brede
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1766 on: April 19, 2007, 12:09:40 PM »

Okay markuzick, I think that we are actually a lot closer to agreeing than not, and definitions of terms are a bigger barrier than they need to be.  I believe that intuitions can be instinctive (that is, inborn) whereas you apparently do not.  That seems to be the biggest obstacle, but we both seem to grant that there are evolved, emotional aspects to morality and reasoned ones as well.

Now you're confusing me. Your the one who introduced the word intuition to help make a distinction between acquired instinct and inherited instinct.

Feelings can be the result of unconscious moral judgements, but are not the cause of morality, although, as I explained, they may influence moral reasoning, as people tend to want to justify their feelings.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1767 on: April 19, 2007, 12:18:52 PM »

It is the premise which leads to the claim of the origin of morality.
Yet even theologically inclined philosophers like Aquinas have proven that morality can be devised such that it requires no deity. That's what we call the big truck-o-fail dropping in on your party. :3

-- Brede

Aquinas was heavily influenced by Ibn Rushd, an Islamic Philosopher, and as I said, in Islam we believe that morality is derived from the fitra, or "nature" of man. So it doesn't suprise me that Aquinas would say this. This makes this whole arguement especially pointless...

I am disputing the premise, not the conclusion.

Ok... just for laughs... lets begin with a different unverifiable faith based premise and see if it makes sense to use it to substantiate a claim.

Premise:
Since big foot is not real…

Claim:
…nothing can be evidence of him, especially foot prints. 

What those people who believe in big foot perceive as footprints are nothing more than tracks left by known animals. In their search for big foot, or belief therein, the person has constructed their perceptions based on the influence of other people. And yes, the video of big foot is the work of people. Footprints can not be evidence of some pretend unknown primate any more than one can provide the facts to support claims that a big foot exists.

So what’s the problem… I don’t believe that big foot exists, you don’t believe that big foot exists. So we have consensus right… no problem. We accept the premise, we accept the claim.

Problems arise when you introduce a believer in big foot into the debate, because the way this argument is constructed the claim relies upon the premise, but the premise also relies upon the claim.

To claim “evidence of Big foot doesn’t exist because Big Foot doesn’t exist” is patently absurd - especially if you follow that up with, “Big foot doesn’t exist because I don’t see any evidence of it.” You are  in affect assuming a negative, and then trying to prove it backwards.

You’re premise cannot be proven, and I don’t accept it. The burden of proof is not upon me. I'm not making any claim. I simply don't accept your premise. You're premise, your burden. The same rules apply if I were an agnostic.

Notice, though I believe that God exists, and someday, God Willing, I will expound evidence, I have not waged that claim to counter your premise. And if the existence of God was used as a premise to support a claim, it would be equally as unfounded of a claim, unless I could either prove the existence of God, or make the claim to a group which had consensus upon God’s existence.



In your Big Foot example, each side has evidence which he believes to support his claim, so it is reasonable for both of them to make their contradictory claims, although only one of them is correct.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

BKO

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1768 on: April 19, 2007, 12:30:55 PM »

I am acting like an adult, Markuzick. I don't know if you can imagine my perspective, however. I don't want to hear what any person wants to say if they cannot have a reasoned debate. I ask for proof, and clearly state my claim and all that is spoken in response is that I must provide proof of their delusions. furthermore, as a soldier I have to return to the desert in a few months or so and quite possibly physically fight radical religious fundamentalists at the possible cost of my life. That means I also have to watch more of my buddies die from bombs placed by these lunatics -because they believe that they are doing the work of their GOD. Well, let me boil it down for everybody...

GOD isn't killing people. PEOPLE are killing people, and it matters not what you say as much as it matters what you DO. I don't see any divine action, I see death. And the words of religion are death, because the work of mankind uses religion to kill and conquer. Is any one side better than the other in these wars? I would say no, because in the end people are just as dead. I chose to ignore Muslim because his words and his mentality are exactly what I have to put up with in the physical world, and it is not my intention to piss on his parade or illicit hatred and contempt by becoming angry with him for no reason. I stated my claim. He stated his. I ended my conversation with him as politely as I could manage, and with my perspective on what I think of the religious minded people of the world in general. I am not going to speak with people who cannot debate using facts, and this thread is ChristianAnarchists, and I come here to try and poke holes in his theory, not to fight unecessarily. To me, I have responded maturely and reasonably given my situation. I also invite others to place me on ignore, as I do not wish to have a pissing contest over opinion.

I wish I could be perfectly civil all the time, but I know when to bow out, even if not too gracefully. Not too immature if you ask me.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 12:32:39 PM by Brokor »
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The Muslim Agorist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1769 on: April 19, 2007, 12:32:40 PM »

Aquinas was heavily influenced by Ibn Rushd, an Islamic Philosopher, and as I said, in Islam we believe that morality is derived from the fitra, or "nature" of man.
Nature as in a human's ability to reason or nature as in a metaphysical essence that defines moralness? I don't buy the latter, but I accept the former.

-- Brede

Neither... "nature" is a rough translation of fitra... not a good one. It's like "faith" is really poor translation for iman... it makes things difficult... let me think...

OK... "Fitra" It's derived from the roots "fa-ta-ra" which in a verb form means to split... "that which is split" This is irrelevant...

It's like the primordial self, the self which is intact at birth, before indoctrination (before the split I guess). The ability to reason is absolutely one aspect of Fitra. The metaphysical essence of man is the "Ruh." Roughly "spirit", literally "breath"... something totally different.

I've been thinking alot about this point about Aquinas, and I'd like to propose an edit of his claim.
I propose that morality does not depend upon knowledge of God, and that it is innate, and in the event that it is indoctrinated out of a person it can be revived through reason, also without knowledge of God.

A non believer can stop there, while the believer might believe that the origin of fitra is God.
Indeed a believer should believe that the origin of everything is God.
But framed this way, the existance or non existance of God is divorced from the question.

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