Negative Nancy

[FTL_Mark]

*Goddamit! I'm still listening to this and they keep saying that I'm bent out of shape over this. Since when does starting a discussion make me a pissed off asshole?!"

Hey, I didn't say anything like that.

No, but you accused me of trying to enslave you, of seeking homogenization, of elitism, and generally derided me for 20 minutes. The comment "If you want to say something, you should start your own show." is especially ironic on Free Talk Live. What's that slogan, again? "Talk radio you control"?

AHAHAHAHAAH! Irony critical hit! You win.

[FTL_Mark]

*Goddamit! I'm still listening to this and they keep saying that I'm bent out of shape over this. Since when does starting a discussion make me a pissed off asshole?!"

Hey, I didn't say anything like that.

No, but you accused me of trying to enslave you, of seeking homogenization, of elitism, and generally derided me for 20 minutes. The comment "If you want to say something, you should start your own show." is especially ironic on Free Talk Live. What's that slogan, again? "Talk radio you control"?

Let me explain the point about using definitions of words to enslave. The roles of Master and Servant are those of domination and submission. You are assuming that you know the definition of a word. You claim the of authority as one who is an expert, and is in agreement with experts on the definition of the word. I claim that some experts would in fact disagree with you and that most people, the ignorant masses would also. You want me to do your bidding, confront the beliefs of the ignorant masses to your belief. What is that other than an attempt to establish domination over me?

If I were to attempt to change my name to Daddy Big Dick and I would not interact with anyone who did not call me by my new name, would I not be clearly trying to dominate those with whom I interact? I would not be violating the Non-Aggression Principle, but I would still be a lonely asshole.

I am not claiming that you are a lonely asshole, I am just saying that If people define "capitalism" one way, and you try to change that behavior, you are going to run up on a lot more resistance than if you give them their definition and use the term "free market" instead.

Yes, I derided your attempt to control and dominate. Yes, I believe you are acting in an elitist fashion i.e. you know the definition of capitalism and the other people's position is wrong. I also think that emails and blog posts get derided much more than phone calls on FTL; I wish that weren't so, but I don't really know how to control it.

[LTKoblinsky]

To think, I always thought you were the reasonable one. Either way, your logic about slavery would include ANY attempt to sway other individuals' opinions. There can be no discussion, only slavery if we use your logic.  Also, I am not exerting any "authority," but appealing to reason and logic in those I'm communicating with. Here's a very good article about intellectual authority vs. appeals to reason: http://www.intellectualactivist.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1234

BTW, now that I think of it, listening to you two go on about Capitalism is much like listening to Christians babble about evolution...

[hellbilly]

Is Green Day "Punk" or is it not?

[alaric89]

I think they self identify as Punk.
The Sex Pistols they are not.
I think both bands hated capitalism.
But I'll bet they both would have been upset if they were offered a hug for payment at a gig.
LTKobllinsky: we need a article on intellectual authority vs. appeals to reason vs. making points through sexual humor. Last one usually wins here.

[FTL_Mark]

To think, I always thought you were the reasonable one. Either way, your logic about slavery would include ANY attempt to sway other individuals' opinions. There can be no discussion, only slavery if we use your logic.  Also, I am not exerting any "authority," but appealing to reason and logic in those I'm communicating with. Here's a very good article about intellectual authority vs. appeals to reason: http://www.intellectualactivist.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1234

BTW, now that I think of it, listening to you two go on about Capitalism is much like listening to Christians babble about evolution...

You are doing it again! I don't want your reading assignments. What if I listed 9 links below and told you to read them? Would that be reasonable or would it be domineering?

No, you can attempt persuade people to act as your myrmidons in anyway that you wish. Some will work better than others. Slave may not be the best term, but I couldn't think of a better one at the time and still haven't. If you can think of a better one, I am open to it.

What about my position is illogical or unreasonable?

Your position, to me, seems to be a common one; that it is more important to be right than to be persuasive.

[sillyperson]

Mark feeds troll.

Why?

[LTKoblinsky]

What about this makes me a troll? My posts have been substantial and reasonable. I've also made other, reasonable posts within this BBS.

Mark, I haven't attempted to coerce, threaten, or subjugate you. I haven't instructed you to scold every listener or lambaste them with capitalist lectures. The fact that you would balk in such a manner at reasonable discussion dissuaded me from calling in and really lowers my esteem of  "Free" Talk Live.

 I just heard Ian say that race is just an idea. Apparently, he thinks that race means all of humanity despite the fact that 90+% of people think of race as skin color. Can you not see that he just made the same argument about racism that I've been trying to make about Capitalism? (I am not racist; I think Ian is right on this). Is he trying to subjugate viewers? Is he speaking "the language of slavery?"

[sillyperson]

What about this makes me a troll?

Answer is in black-hole questions like this one:

Is he trying to subjugate viewers? Is he speaking "the language of slavery?"

[LTKoblinsky]

What about this makes me a troll?

Answer is in black-hole questions like this one:

Is he trying to subjugate viewers? Is he speaking "the language of slavery?"

Those questions aren't black holes. This one makes the point that of course he's not, and neither am I.

[FTL_Mark]

LT, I don't think you are a troll; I think you are pissed. I think the tone that we responded to you with, on air, got out of hand. I think it might be the nature of the internet, the nature of the written word, the nature of talk radio, the type of show that we have done in the past vs how we would like it to sound in the future, and the way that a person tends to feel when they have addressed an issue for the umpteenth time. You want an apology? I am sorry I wasn't more patient and that I raised my voice.

Now here is a what you did:
1. You wrote a nice friendly little post informing us how you know the definition of capitalism and we don't.
2. You ignored most of my points in my posts. That is frustrating, man. I take the time to type stuff out and you ignore my words?
3. You willfully failed to acknowledge that definitions are at least in part defined by the masses and the common usage of a word.
4. You took the cheap way out and made a post of your point rather than calling in and making your point, on a TALK radio show.
5. You have denied that one can coerce and manipulate with words.

You are probably a fantastic debater, but if you act like something is a debate, this is what you are going to get. If you wanted a pleasant conversation to try to find out why we choose to define capitalism the way that we do, there might have been a better way to go about it. In your initial post you sounded like a know-it-all, a know-it-all trying to be pleasant, but a know-it-all. Then you didn't even acknowledge the point in my first post. Then you accused FTL of being intellectually dishonest or lazy. All of that happened BEFORE the post was read on air. If you want respect, LT, you need to give it.

[sillyperson]

You are probably a fantastic debater

Maybe even a Master Debater

[LTKoblinsky]

LT, I don't think you are a troll; I think you are pissed. I think the tone that we responded to you with, on air, got out of hand. I think it might be the nature of the internet, the nature of the written word, the nature of talk radio, the type of show that we have done in the past vs how we would like it to sound in the future, and the way that a person tends to feel when they have addressed an issue for the umpteenth time. You want an apology? I am sorry I wasn't more patient and that I raised my voice.

Now here is a what you did:
1. You wrote a nice friendly little post informing us how you know the definition of capitalism and we don't.
2. You ignored most of my points in my posts. That is frustrating, man. I take the time to type stuff out and you ignore my words?
3. You willfully failed to acknowledge that definitions are at least in part defined by the masses and the common usage of a word.
4. You took the cheap way out and made a post of your point rather than calling in and making your point, on a TALK radio show.
5. You have denied that one can coerce and manipulate with words.

You are probably a fantastic debater, but if you act like something is a debate, this is what you are going to get. If you wanted a pleasant conversation to try to find out why we choose to define capitalism the way that we do, there might have been a better way to go about it. In your initial post you sounded like a know-it-all, a know-it-all trying to be pleasant, but a know-it-all. Then you didn't even acknowledge the point in my first post. Then you accused FTL of being intellectually dishonest or lazy. All of that happened BEFORE the post was read on air. If you want respect, LT, you need to give it.

Points well taken. A few things.
1) The gay reference flew right over my head the first time I read it. I addressed it later, though, with the point about evolution. There are differences between slang/general use words like gay and cool and technical terms used within specific professions. Capitalism is a word by economists, for economics. A broad misunderstanding of the term does not change the its meaning.
2) Words (outside of threats of force) cannot coerce. Manipulation is another matter. Manipulation is the point of every interaction with others, thought it is benign most of the time. I don't htink you established a case for me manipulating you outside of mundane attempt at convincing you.
3) I don't often get the opportunity to call in or even listen live. The BBS and chat allow me a chance to interact with you (my closest connection to the state I'm going to live in in a few months) outside of the small window of opportunity that is on air each night.
4) We obviously have stylistic difference of discussion. Yours is a more casual back and forth while mine leans more toward the structured end of the spectrum.
All of the Opinion warnings and even the title were meant to infer respect for your position on the subject and overall, but as someone who is knowledgable within the field of economics, I felt it was misinformed. Is there any chance to salvage a civil discussion out of this?

[FTL_Mark]

There is now.

So, your point that capitalism is an economic term and should thus be defined by economists doesn't take into consideration the reality of how language works. I have used capitalism in the fashion that you suggest and my experience is that some people are "charged up" by the word. They have a huge back story in their minds about what it means and how it operates. Are they wrong about the definition as it is used by some economists? Sure. But are they wrong if all of their friends and compatriots and the experts that they choose to listen to use it the same way as they do? Not in their minds.

I want the Philosophy of Liberty to appeal to a broad base of people; Left, Right, Center and Uninvolved. I think we have been successful at that on FTL and I try to take all critiques regarding how we use language and if we leave some people feeling excluded seriously. Remember that 99.999...% of our listeners will never call in. If I use Capitalism in the manner that you suggest, I will not have the opportunity to rebut the Lefty's (we are on several Progressive stations) concerns about capitalism. He will just tune out. I don't get to talk to the people that decide they will never listen again, I just lose them. If those people want to fight supporters of Capitalism, they won't be arguing with me. I will agree with them (usually throw in a quick caveat like "Well, if you define capitalism as what we have in America and largely the world, where global corporations work with governments to subjugate all of us...")

I am in this business for one reason, to convince people that the ideas of liberty are the most practical and moral way to arrange society. If the term capitalism, as you define it, takes a few hits in the process, so be it. The Free Market is a better term anyway.

Was the term Capitalism created by Marx?

[Ecolitan]

Is Green Day "Punk" or is it not?

sometimes