Romans 13 (part 2)

[johnnycox]

If I delete all the posts I wanted from this damn thread, there would not be a thread.  I hope some meaningful conversations come out of this...

In the meantime, if someone wants to help me out with Romans 13, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

I also think that Christians and Liberty types can coexist without the apparent vehement that I have seen.  Not that we are all out to proselytize folks into Liberty types, but Christians are a tremendous group to pull from.

For the record, I am a govt contractor.  I used to be an active duty type.  I grew a conscience in 2007 and got out.  Thanks to FTL.  Shortly after going from about $25/hr to $13, I slimed back into a contractor job for the money.  My conscience is there still, and yes I hate my job.  Fortunately or unfortunately, the gravy train is gonna end.  I am guessing in Oct.  The start of the next fiscal year.  We will see.  If the train does not end, I probably will stay in the job.  So no, I am not that principled yet.  It's hard to give up the money.

[johnnycox]

Dalebert, I was hoping to connect with people like me.  I guess I am the only tigger.

[John Shaw]

Dalebert, I was hoping to connect with people like me.  I guess I am the only tigger.

PROTIP - You probably wanna talk to/PM Gene the Christian Anarchist. I think he still has an account.

He's been our resident Xian for years. There are others as well but they don't talk bible much because of how these conversations tend to go.

[Jeff Felton]

I dont know where to start.

So im not gonna.

Enjoy your govt cheese. Hope it tastes good, sicko.

PS - Only reason I would support taking govt freebies, is to bankrupt the system quicker, so it disappears, out of my face.

I am curious how you expect our country to function with no government.  you are saying you are gonna use the govt freebies... I imagine you will not send back the social security checks when you reach the joke of a retirement age they have set... So whats the difference.   Either way, I would just like to know how you would expect the country to operate without a government.   

[Jeff Felton]

Just seems to me that someone that works for the government wouldn't really like to see the government shrink, especially when it comes to the area of government that they work in. Take a career military guy for example. Lets say, just for argument that ALL the dangerous threats in the world somehow went away, all at once. You think that lifer-guy is gonna want to see his job disappear overnight? Hell no he wont. He will most likely, for some reason or another, justify the continued need for the particular job that he does, even if he agrees that some of the departments should get cut.  So, starting with that premise, how could we possibly get any honest opinion from people that work for government when it comes to the subject of cutting back?


That, in my opinion, is the hardest part with debating anything with someone that works for the government. Sure, you'll get the occasional govt worker that wants to see all departments cut way back................. as long as its not HIS job that gets put on the chopping block first.

Plus what Shaw pointed out. You are paid with stolen cash.

lol I agree with most of what you said here.  The $$ I am paid with is illegaly obtained since double taxation is illegall.   So atleast I am getting some of the $$ back that they are taking from me illegaly.  If I don't take it someone else will.   I do agree with Government shrinkage.  The original intent for the Federal government was nothing like it is today.  Originaly the Federal government was only supposed to have power over foreign deplomacy, the military, the US currency, and a few other very minor agencies which I can't think of off the top of my head... but if it was maintained as intended, then the Federal government would be around 1% compared to the size it is today if not less....  I agree with the way it was orginaly intended to be.  Right now the entire government has basicaly become a buisness to take care of, and gain more of their own $$ and power.  yes, they still do deplomacy and attempt to manage our currency and so forth which they tend to fail at most of the time.  But for the most part, it has become a $$ sink for creating more useless laws that constantly contradict the already current laws in place and it is never ending cycle of trying to create new options for spending $$ which creates more need for more taxes ect... Basicaly a never ending cycle.  I am not argueing that our government works becuase it does not work well at all currently.   

What I am asking is what exactly do you propose to to fix the problem?  I constantly hear people complain, but very rarely does anyone have any real idea of how to fix it.

[BonerJoe]

If I were still a mod, there would be two less accounts here.

[John Shaw]

Jeff, there are dozens of podcasts and books and so on about stateless societies. The information is there if you want it.

Demanding that someone else do all of the work in a conversation is unfair.

Read or listen to - Practical Anarchy & Everyday Anarchy - By Stefan Molyneux

Read Ludwig Von Mises

Read Murray Rothbard

Read or listen to Roderick Long

Read Lew Rockwell

Listen to School Sucks


The answer to "How are we supposed to run society without a state?" doesn't work. If one person could answer that question, it would be a better argument for a dictatorship run by the person with all the answers than a stateless society.

The better question is to ask yourself "How would I do X if there weren't a gooberment?"

"How would I, personally, maintain my own road if no one was stealing half of my money, and making me pay rent on my propery?"

"How would I, personally, educate my children?"

"How would I, personally, make sure that the elderly and poor have proper health care?"

I bet you can come up with answers that don't involve THREATENING SOMEONE WITH DEATH IF THE DON'T PAY FOR IT.

[John Shaw]

If I were still a mod, there would be two less accounts here.

I don't understand why you aren't still a mod. You should tell Ian to give your E-cock back.

[alaric89]

Just seems to me that someone that works for the government wouldn't really like to see the government shrink, especially when it comes to the area of government that they work in. Take a career military guy for example. Lets say, just for argument that ALL the dangerous threats in the world somehow went away, all at once. You think that lifer-guy is gonna want to see his job disappear overnight? Hell no he wont. He will most likely, for some reason or another, justify the continued need for the particular job that he does, even if he agrees that some of the departments should get cut.  So, starting with that premise, how could we possibly get any honest opinion from people that work for government when it comes to the subject of cutting back?


That, in my opinion, is the hardest part with debating anything with someone that works for the government. Sure, you'll get the occasional govt worker that wants to see all departments cut way back................. as long as its not HIS job that gets put on the chopping block first.

Plus what Shaw pointed out. You are paid with stolen cash.

lol I agree with most of what you said here.  The $$ I am paid with is illegaly obtained since double taxation is illegall.   So atleast I am getting some of the $$ back that they are taking from me illegaly.  If I don't take it someone else will.   I do agree with Government shrinkage.  The original intent for the Federal government was nothing like it is today.  Originaly the Federal government was only supposed to have power over foreign deplomacy, the military, the US currency, and a few other very minor agencies which I can't think of off the top of my head... but if it was maintained as intended, then the Federal government would be around 1% compared to the size it is today if not less....  I agree with the way it was orginaly intended to be.  Right now the entire government has basicaly become a buisness to take care of, and gain more of their own $$ and power.  yes, they still do deplomacy and attempt to manage our currency and so forth which they tend to fail at most of the time.  But for the most part, it has become a $$ sink for creating more useless laws that constantly contradict the already current laws in place and it is never ending cycle of trying to create new options for spending $$ which creates more need for more taxes ect... Basicaly a never ending cycle.  I am not argueing that our government works becuase it does not work well at all currently.   

What I am asking is what exactly do you propose to to fix the problem?  I constantly hear people complain, but very rarely does anyone have any real idea of how to fix it.

I want you to have the freedom to fix your own problems.

[BonerJoe]

If I were still a mod, there would be two less accounts here.

I don't understand why you aren't still a mod. You should tell Ian to give your E-cock back.

He loves his Gene too much.

[alaric89]

I miss BJ being a mod as well. He was always willing to be the hardass (I think he liked being a dick actually) and that was something.
Jeff en Johnny, "Liberty Kids" has a lot of youtube cartoons that cover most FAQs you might have about basic liberty.http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/liberty-kids/ The FTL BBS is full of trolls and assholes and we are proud of it. Gentle discussion of basic stuff is not something you will get out us, sorry. We are the only message board I know of that is disowned by the provider.

[John Shaw]

We are the only message board I know of that is disowned by the provider.

Well, also 4chan, but that's not helping your cause, hehe.

Yes, the FTL BBS is populated with salty, crusty hard asses.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Seeing as I'm leaving for China in about 14 hours, I really don't have the time to jump in here but I would like to say something about sock puppeting (as one who has done this years ago :0). . .

Post one side of your argument from your PC and the other from your phone.  At least then you get different ip addresses (or use a proxy for one side).  So you don't get confused, you should keep each browser open at all times...

[John Shaw]

Sup Gene.

Also lol.

[mauiguy]

I work to get the paycheck to support my family.  I don't agree with the way the government operates by any means.  But I will not turn down one of the most secure forms of income for my family. especially since in the area I live in, the pay is also much higher then I would make outside of a government job.   You may call me a hypocrite, but I am doing it for the $$ and thats it.  

Sounds like something a common criminal would say. They do it for the money too.

I always have had a problem with taxation because it has been stated since the US government was established that double taxation is illegal, yet our government taxes you many many times over.     But without the government there would be no USA as we know it.  you would most likely still live under a dictator that gives you much less freedoms then you have now under the republic that the US government is today.  

If you have a problem with taxes quit cashing those stolen checks.
The dictator thing is a strawman. The fact of the matter is that we currently live under a machiavellian police state that is almost indistinguishable from a dictatorship. The latest renewal of the patriot act is the most current example.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. You're non-dictatorial government "legally" tortures and imprisons innocent people indefinitely. Sounds pretty dick-tatorish to me.  

And tell me, if you are so against the government, are you going to turn down any government aid that might at some point be given to you?   Government grants for your kids to go to college, Medicare or Medicade for a family member of yours that can't afford their own health insurance, public school systems, law enforcement, hospitals, etc... etc... yes we as citizens pay for parts of these, but the government also pays for them, and they would not be there for you to use if the government was not there.   So me getting paid to do a job for the government is not any different then anyone else using other government services.

Just for the record, government doesn't pay for anything. It either steals money from hard working, honest people and then wastes it in the most inefficient way imaginable or it prints money which destroys the value of the earnings and savings of the same hard working, honest individuals.
The only way that government acquires anything is through violent criminal theft.
I refuse to knowingly accept stolen goods. I work to improve my own life and those around me.
I would suggest you look into acquiring an honest means of making a living and quit stealing from your neighbors.

So let me ask you this, if you are so anti government, what do you suggest we do instead of our current government?

Well ain't that the million dollar question?
I couldn't tell you what it would look like but I can say for damn sure that I reject the use of violence to achieve an end in any system I would support.

G'day, sir.