Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

[The Muslim Agorist]

In your Big Foot example, each side has evidence which he believes to support his claim, so it is reasonable for both of them to make their contradictory claims, although only one of them is correct.

Exactly Right.

But unreasonable to support another claim with that premise.

[markuzick]

I am acting like an adult, Markuzick. I don't know if you can imagine my perspective, however. I don't want to hear what any person wants to say if they cannot have a reasoned debate. I ask for proof, and clearly state my claim and all that is spoken in response is that I must provide proof of their delusions. furthermore, as a soldier I have to return to the desert in a few months or so and quite possibly physically fight radical religious fundamentalists at the possible cost of my life. That means I also have to watch more of my buddies die from bombs placed by these lunatics -because they believe that they are doing the work of their GOD. Well, let me boil it down for everybody...

GOD isn't killing people. PEOPLE are killing people, and it matters not what you say as much as it matters what you DO. I don't see any divine action, I see death. And the words of religion are death, because the work of mankind uses religion to kill and conquer. Is any one side better than the other in these wars? I would say no, because in the end people are just as dead. I chose to ignore Muslim because his words and his mentality are exactly what I have to put up with in the physical world, and it is not my intention to piss on his parade or illicit hatred and contempt by becoming angry with him for no reason. I stated my claim. He stated his. I ended my conversation with him as politely as I could manage, and with my perspective on what I think of the religious minded people of the world in general. I am not going to speak with people who cannot debate using facts, and this thread is ChristianAnarchists, and I come here to try and poke holes in his theory, not to fight unecessarily. To me, I have responded maturely and reasonably given my situation. I also invite others to place me on ignore, as I do not wish to have a pissing contest over opinion.

I wish I could be perfectly civil all the time, but I know when to bow out, even if not too gracefully. Not too immature if you ask me.

I view democracy as well as other forms of statism as a religion. I take the view that the USA is run by a bunch of democratic fundamentalist nut bags that are invading other theocracies and spreading death and destruction in the name of this irrational national religion, thereby empowering religious fanatics in this country and in the countries that are attacked or intimidated by "our" zealots, while weakening the more more rational moderates of all religions, as well as the non-religious. The theists that post here are still libertarians.(I include among the theists, not only the Christians ,Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and Satanists, but the Minarchists and other Statists as well.) As such, they deserve to be treated with respect for their persons, if not their beliefs. Remember that no one is perfect and that nearly all of the great men and women who have contributed to cultural, technical and scientific legacy of mankind were/are theists of one kind or another.

[dharveymi]

When the grammar/typographical police start coming out to score "points" in the discussion, I think it's safe to assume that the constructiveness of said discussion is over.

I thought it was funny.  I was just making a joke.  I thought other people would think it was funny too, wrong as usual.

[dharveymi]

Why on earth should I care what the Bible says on the matter?  The Bible is not a dictionary. 

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: 1faith
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

KJV Bible
Heb. 11: 1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Thayer's Lexicon
conviction of the truth of anything

I'm not making up my own definition.  You are.

I made it clear that I do not have faith that God exists, I assume God exists.

Same thing. 

Well, as long as you say so.  Then it must be true.

Then frankly, God is an asshole.  Only an asshole would put people in hell and then demand that they believe in him in order to take them out.

Who said God puts you in hell?  I didn't say that.

Okay, just please stop defining words to fit your theology. 

I'll do as I please, thank you very much.  What do you care?

[dharveymi]

...as a soldier I have to return to the desert in a few months or so and quite possibly physically fight radical religious fundamentalists at the possible cost of my life.

Instead of killing patriots defending their homes and country from foreign invaders, you could live up to your duty and defend the constitution against enemies domestic (politicians.)  Just a thought, I don't think their religious beliefs have a whole lot to do with it.

[The Muslim Agorist]

You guys have me pondering some strange avenues. I want to participate but I’m having a language barrier, especially that whole faith as a prerequisite for experiment exchange. Part of it is that I don’t accept the dictionary as a source of definition. It seems to me that a Christian shouldn’t either, but instead study the Greek, but that’s another matter. I want to share this for discussion. What follows is information, not argument. This is just my understanding of faith.

The root of the word “Iman” (which is what I mean when I say faith) is “am-ma-na” which means to be calm in one’s heart/mind, to be without fear, or to have trust. “Iman” means to be convinced, to verify, and to rely upon with confidence. According to the Quran, Iman is conviction which is based upon reason, knowledge, and intellectual satisfaction, which results in a feeling of inner contentment.
So, I might change the question from “What do you believe without evidence?” to “What truth have you been convinced of, that your heart/mind relies upon, and which gives you peace of mind/heart?”

If we can agree upon that definition, we can ask that question.
If we can ask that question, we can answer it.
Then maybe we can explain why we are convinced, rather than trying to convince each other.

PS. I found this verse and felt like sharing, like it or hate it.
"The worst of beasts in the sight of God are the deaf and dumb who do not use their intellect to understand." (8:22)

[BKO]

Your perceptions are your own, Harvey. My reasons are not open for debate, I am sorry. I do not want to chat about "why I am a soldier", and I regret that I even mentioned it in the first place.

I cannot expect everybody to view everything as I do. And I will continue to use the ignore feature as long as I wish to do so. Why worry about what I SEE when I visit the forums? If you ask me, I think that this is all being blown out of proportion, and it is silly to expect me to SAY and ACT as some people on this forum have expected me to.

I am in control of my own life, thank you very much for being concerned.

[dharveymi]

Yeah, no problem.  I'm sure you have perfectly good reasons for violence; for example,  people don't believe like you.  Makes sense.  I know, I've been on the receiving end of some pretty harsh words.  You really can't expect people to give you a pass for your beliefs when you attack others for theirs.

[BKO]

You don't know me, Harvey. And you quite obviously don't know shit, either. How dare you judge me because you disagree with politics. I am a soldier and I follow orders, and damn you for blaming me for the worlds' problems.

I don't retalliate toward the beliefs of others with violence, and I don't ignore people on this forum unless I feel that I need to pull away from discussions with them in the future.

Your statement is completely irrational and you are applying terms to the situation that is unecessary and unadulterated.

[Rillion]

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: 1faith
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

......and there we have our equivocation!  Thanks for not letting me down.  After all, if faith is believing in something not proven, and nothing is proven, then believing I can cross the street safely is just like believing in the supernatural.  Therefore we all have faith and we might as well believe in anything we please. 

Then frankly, God is an asshole.  Only an asshole would put people in hell and then demand that they believe in him in order to take them out.

Who said God puts you in hell?  I didn't say that.

If God put me here, and here is hell, then God put me in hell.  QED. 

[ladyattis]

Did faith make the first humans look up at the stars and ask, "What's out there?" Did faith make it possible for them to make telescopes to see? Did faith make it possible for them to write voluminous works of fiction about being out there? Will faith make the dream of nearly countless children that want go out there possible? Can faith even do anything?

I ask it as a series of questions because the fact remains is faith does nothing. Tesla didn't make the first AC generator on faith, he knew it would work by reason. In fact, Tesla conceived the entire machine in his mind and tested in his mind, the first prototype worked perfectly because he didn't believe, he knew. Faith is no substitute for an ever working mind. Faith can't fill the mind, nor give it the desire to fill itself with something. The mind and faith are opposites. The mind is what allows us to have hope in the future, a belief in something real, not unreal. That kind of hope I can take to the bank, faith I cannot.

-- Brede

[markuzick]

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: 1faith
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

......and there we have our equivocation!  Thanks for not letting me down.  After all, if faith is believing in something not proven, and nothing is proven, then believing I can cross the street safely is just like believing in the supernatural.  Therefore we all have faith and we might as well believe in anything we please.

It all depends on which definition your using. To have a strong conviction, if it's backed up by strong evidence and careful reasoning, even if there is no proof, is perfectly reasonable. The key to the reasonableness of faith depends on the word "firm" that's used in this definition. If by "firm" you mean absolute, then you have dogmatism, or religious faith. If "firm" just means strong, yet still open to new evidence or interpretation, then it's reasonable.

[Rillion]

It all depends on which definition your using. To have a strong conviction, if it's backed up by strong evidence and careful reasoning, even if there is no proof, is perfectly reasonable. The key to the reasonableness of faith depends on the word "firm" that's used in this definition. If by "firm" you mean absolute, then you have dogmatism, or religious faith. If "firm" just means strong, yet still open to new evidence or interpretation, then it's reasonable.

Exactly-- that's a very good explanation.  What frustrates me is the way the same word "faith" is used so often to describe beliefs reached via reason and beliefs reached via sheer desire and attempts to be a good person.  That's why I was attempting to describe religious faith in terms of morality earlier, because that seems to be the key component that makes people believe in something without sufficient evidence. 

[dharveymi]

You don't know me, Harvey. And you quite obviously don't know shit, either. How dare you judge me because you disagree with politics. I am a soldier and I follow orders, and damn you for blaming me for the worlds' problems.

I don't retaliate toward the beliefs of others with violence, and I don't ignore people on this forum unless I feel that I need to pull away from discussions with them in the future.

Your statement is completely irrational and you are applying terms to the situation that is unecessary and unadulterated.

Yeah, damn me!  I don't know shit, the devil made me do it; I was just following orders. 

I don't know about the world.  I know about people.  It is people who follow orders, it is people that kill people.  Didn't you say that?

P.S.  Ignore me if you like.  Or don't, get mad instead, damn me.  Quit your job, and I'll stop attacking people on the forum for their religious beliefs.

[dharveymi]

Therefore we all have faith and we might as well believe in anything we please. 

That's right!  And, that's why I'm saying that we shouldn't be so judgmental, emphasis on MENTAL.

If God put me here, and here is hell, then God put me in hell.  QED. 

I didn't say God put you here.  You weren't immaculately conceived.

If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?