Warren Jeff

[davann]

From what I have heard about Warren Jeff and his charges about rape was that it was prosecuted by the state and the state only. Meaning the girl(s) involved were considered hostile witnesses by the prosecution. This was really a travesty of justice and even bordered on infringement of freedom of religion.

[hellbilly]

yep.. what an uproar. busting religious compounds seems to be seasonal.. every now and then the feds get to roll out the guns n ammo and call open season on religious cults.

the Warren folks, creepy & disturbing? yes. but so is every other religious group.

these crazies are rumoured to have banned laughter and crayolas. strange notions to the mainstream people, right?

yet, what one church calls "Christenings" i call strange. most churches rely on prayer, i think prayer is strange. baptism, chanting, swaying, religious hysteria and fanaticism, belief in creation- all strange to me.

the Warren menfolk presumably married teenage girls and made some babies. well, that goes on outside the Warren church as well. is it more threatening because they do it openly?

the Warren womenfolk were told they could leave at any time they wanted. many chose not to because they were afraid of what they had been taught about Demons and Hell- the same trappings that "normal" religious people become fearful of.

to me, this is a case of majority losers picking on minority losers.

[Alex Libman]

Libertarians must not let their potential personal dislike for the "fundies" keep them from supporting their freedom to live however the hell they choose.  What the government is doing to them is inexcusable, and it can set dangerous precedents for other issues like home-schooling, reproductive freedom, and parents' rights.

And, from a higher-level point of view, the consequences are even more dire...  As the "your children belong to the state" mentality spreads, the birth rate will plummet (why give your master more slaves at your own cost?), and the Western Civilization will be just a few generations away from going the way of the dodo...

[NHArticleTen]

Libertarians must not let their potential personal dislike for the "fundies" keep them from supporting their freedom to live however the hell they choose.  What the government is doing to them is inexcusable, and it can set dangerous precedents for other issues like home-schooling, reproductive freedom, and parents' rights.

And, from a higher-level point of view, the consequences are even more dire...  As the "your children belong to the state" mentality spreads, the birth rate will plummet (why give your master more slaves at your own cost?), and the Western Civilization will be just a few generations away from going the way of the dodo...

Yes, instead of incinerating them all like the murderers did at Waco...the thugs have fabricated a "tip" from a "source" that can NEVER be substantiated and authenticated,  so that they have an excuse to meddle in the private, personal affairs of other Individual Sovereign Human Beings.  Someone must have wanted their property, buildings, and assets.

I'd venture to say that the thugs would be extremely hesitant to do the same thing to an inner-city subsidized hi-rise where generation after generation are occupants from cradle to grave...where the slave-masters would find teen and pre-teen sex, rape, and prostitution...where they would find rampant drug and alcohol use...where they would find religious, spiritual, and occult beliefs and practices that they find objectionable...where they would have to admit that the property, buildings, and assets are mostly provided by the state and, therefore, already under their complete control, as evidenced by their demands that these victims of the state remain completely defenseless and under the complete control of their benevolent global gulag prison plantation slave-masters.

These atrocities will continue as long as we don't actively protect our neighbors and fellow planetary inhabitants from the aggression/force/fraud of the looters/bureaucrats/jackboots/mercenaries.

Our small puny "country" with it's paltry 300 million will be no match for the 3 billion chinese who will come to this country first as a peace-keeping force after our next Internal War Of Aggression starts...and then to stay as they call in our debt to them...and they take the collateral for that debt...which, of course, is not only our property but ourselves and our children and our grandchildren and so on and so forth...

Then they will establish a worldwide dynasty the likes of which this planet has never seen before.  Not only will they have their own weapons of conquest, but they will secure and utilize those of the countries which they conquer...I don't think they will destroy our infrastructure, but I do think that they will murder millions...enjoy...

RAD

John Shaw!

[ReverendRyan]

The problem here is government, but you guys are only half right.

There is a lot of abuse going on in this community. Trust me, I've been there, and I've seen the de facto sexual slavery going on, and one of the few charities I deem worthy of my money exists to assist boys as young as 12 that are run out of that community to fend for themselves, this after being taught their entire lives that the entire outside world is evil. Do any google search on "the lost boys of polygamy" and you'll see what I mean.

It comes down to this: Nobody will help them BECAUSE OF government. If someone who cared about the welfare of these kids hired a mercenary company to rescue them, he would in this case be completely justified, and in the ideal world would be given the opportunity to prove his case.

But as it stands now, a rescuer goes to jail for kidnapping. Either he can make the case that they are abused and they go to state custody, or the court disagrees and they go back to their hellhole. Either way, the end result is the same as getting government involved, plus you go to jail for kidnapping, even if you were morally justified. That removes any incentive for people to do the right thing, and instead puts the government in the role to do it badly.

Get what I mean?

[Alex Libman]

... The thugs have fabricated a "tip" from a "source" that can NEVER be substantiated and authenticated ...

That has been my assumption since I first heard about this case.

It comes down to this: Nobody will help them BECAUSE OF government. If someone who cared about the welfare of these kids hired a mercenary company to rescue them, he would in this case be completely justified, and in the ideal world would be given the opportunity to prove his case.

That is where I disagree with you (and Ian).  Your "kidnap children from bad parents" idea is nuts!  Children (and pets) have a relationship to their parents that is similar to "property", though this word carries a lot of stigma when applied to living things.  (Maybe "guardianship" is a better word?)  The parents are not the slaves of their children!  They chose to give them life, and they should have the privilege of control over their creation until it becomes a fully-endowed human being.  Right to life starts with physical autonomy (birth) but rights to liberty and property should start upon adulthood: reaching a minimum age or being legally emancipated, whichever comes first.  A society that doesn't let parents be in charge of the family will experience a huge drop in birth rates and will not survive in the long run!

So the solution to serious child abuse is legal emancipation: the child must WANT to sue for emancipation, and be able to make a case that s\he can manage without the benefits and drawbacks of being attached to one's parents (or whatever guardians the "guardianship" of the child was transfered to).  A child's case can be strengthened by evidence that his/her right to life is being violated through unreasonable physical abuse, rape, etc.  A child that cannot demonstrate ability to be fully emancipated to one's own liberty could be granted limited emancipation on the condition that s\he is consenting the transfer of one's "guardianship" to a third party that is willing and able to take care of that child.

[davann]

There is a lot of abuse going on in this community. Trust me, I've been there, and I've seen the de facto sexual slavery going on

Such as? Don't get me wrong, I find these people to very very strange. But actual proof of sexual slavery is called for. Not just claims.

[Andy]

... The thugs have fabricated a "tip" from a "source" that can NEVER be substantiated and authenticated ...

That has been my assumption since I first heard about this case.

Or the cultists murdered her.

[Alex Libman]

C'mon, you overestimate the power of fundie brainwashing - there's a certain level of reciprocal trust between the brainwasher and the brainwashee that must be maintained.  A lot of women are actually happy in that living arrangement (in England, like 5x more women are converting to Islam than men!), as long as a certain level of stability is maintained.  On a compound like that rumors spread fast, and the elders would have a real insurrection on their hands.

[hellbilly]

i heard about the younger men being put out- that made me think that if anyone should be exposing those assholes, it should be them. if they formed a union of some sort, they may be the best shot at getting those people straightened out.

i consider them just another weak minded group of religious americans. totally harmless except possibly to themselves (unlike other religious groups).

as far as polygamy goes- im sure most everyone here would agree- thats a rubbish offense, who cares? its only polygamy because of the fucking marriage licenses required- dont get married, father a dozen kids with just as many women and thats somehow different.. because of the lack of the legal document..

[davann]

as far as polygamy goes- im sure most everyone here would agree- thats a rubbish offense, who cares? its only polygamy because of the fucking marriage licenses required- dont get married, father a dozen kids with just as many women and thats somehow different.. because of the lack of the legal document..

Yeah, the polygamy stuff is just insane. Who the hell cares about this stuff? Although, because of it, a case could be made that these men have suffered enough already. I can barely stand having one woman living with me, the thought of 3 or 4 makes me cringe. Talk about hell on earth!

[hellbilly]

saw an interview with a bunch of wives of one man. they appeared very happy and healthy to me. said they would welcome new wives and would never marry their daughters off until they were 18 or older. they were also pretty funny- joking about how they have the peace and freedom of being away from their husband because they can pass him off on the other wives!

i dont value marriage at all. being with multiple women is the natural course. having children with multiple women is the natural result of that action.. thats the way nature intended it to be. the church planted these notions that this is immoral. individuals who want to pair up for a lifetime together- i think thats wonderful. but many of us havent found that one "true love" - thats an endless game for me and many others.

[NHArticleTen]

i heard about the younger men being put out- that made me think that if anyone should be exposing those assholes, it should be them. if they formed a union of some sort, they may be the best shot at getting those people straightened out.

i consider them just another weak minded group of religious americans. totally harmless except possibly to themselves (unlike other religious groups).

as far as polygamy goes- im sure most everyone here would agree- thats a rubbish offense, who cares? its only polygamy because of the fucking marriage licenses required- dont get married, father a dozen kids with just as many women and thats somehow different.. because of the lack of the legal document..

I think that would definitely be the best plan...after all, they were aggressed against if they were separated by force from their family members still there...

Better yet, anyone who disapproved of them and theirs could just flood the place with guns...surely the discontented ones would arm themselves and get the hell out of there...or not...whatever...you can't save the world...

RAD

John Shaw!

[NHArticleTen]

... The thugs have fabricated a "tip" from a "source" that can NEVER be substantiated and authenticated ...

That has been my assumption since I first heard about this case.

Or the cultists murdered her.

Cultist...

[Alex Libman]

I have nothing but respect for Warren Jeffs.  He took in a bunch of idiots and gave them what they wanted, and, as the saying goes, "the government hates competition".  The worst thing the FLDS has done is accept welfare from the government, which is a separate moral debate altogether.

It is a fundamental human right to raise your children however you see fit, to have as many marriage partners as you can get, and to live in seclusion if you so choose.  As a matter a fact, I am so pissed off about this case I might not start paying my taxes after all...