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Author Topic: Warren Jeff  (Read 14611 times)

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Kara

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2008, 10:53:15 PM »

This is a complicated issue. I have no doubt that girls have been abused and brainwashed. But systematically grabbing all the children is not the answer. These women have already been victimized, now the gov. adds to the problem.

I dont know the answer. Eventually, this country is going to have to decide the differance between a belief system and a religion. If my religion says that if I kill people, I will go to "happy hunting ground" can I kill people??

I dont see a problem with adult women choosing to entering a plural marriage. But a 10 year old being forced to marry an old man is a clear violation of liberty. On the other hand, if there was a phone call then this person was not a prisoner.
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Kara

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2008, 11:04:25 PM »


as far as polygamy goes- im sure most everyone here would agree- thats a rubbish offense, who cares? its only polygamy because of the fucking marriage licenses required- dont get married, father a dozen kids with just as many women and thats somehow different.. because of the lack of the legal document..


Yeah, the polygamy stuff is just insane. Who the hell cares about this stuff? Although, because of it, a case could be made that these men have suffered enough already. I can barely stand having one woman living with me, the thought of 3 or 4 makes me cringe. Talk about hell on earth!

That reminds me off a Sociology class I took years ago. When polygomy came up, the young guys were like "hey that would be great." But the older guys were "NO WAY!"
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hellbilly

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2008, 11:11:52 PM »

This is a complicated issue. I have no doubt that girls have been abused and brainwashed. But systematically grabbing all the children is not the answer. These women have already been victimized, now the gov. adds to the problem.

I dont know the answer. Eventually, this country is going to have to decide the differance between a belief system and a religion. If my religion says that if I kill people, I will go to "happy hunting ground" can I kill people??

I dont see a problem with adult women choosing to entering a plural marriage. But a 10 year old being forced to marry an old man is a clear violation of liberty. On the other hand, if there was a phone call then this person was not a prisoner.

the caller has yet to be identified, so the credibility is in question. i havent heard the age 10 mentioned yet.. and the mothers f the children say they do not allow underage girls to marry (i dont buy that either.. but if we are expected to take the governments word, we should take the moms word too).

this is being portrayed as some sort of extremism. truth is, underage sex and pregnancy is pretty normal. the only difference here is that these people are wacky nuts.

for instance, a teenage girl calls from inside a ghetto (attn. soft members of the forum, substitute "Trailer Park" here to make yourselves feel better) somewhere and says "i am 16 and i am pregnant with an older mans child".. who's jaw is gonna drop? nobody's. no one is going to form a dozen committees and go inside the ghetto and snatch up all the children because one teenage mama made a phone call.

me- im convinced this is this years Waco. nothing more.
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Andy

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2008, 03:13:14 AM »

Quote
... The thugs have fabricated a "tip" from a "source" that can NEVER be substantiated and authenticated ...

That has been my assumption since I first heard about this case.

Or the cultists murdered her.

Cultist...
So what cult do I belong to exactly?

progressiveliberty

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2008, 02:24:06 PM »

So in your minds when does it become abuse that the government needs to intervene?

When a 16 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?
When a 14 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?
When a 12 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?
When a 10 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?
When an 8 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?

IMO, the line drawn when trying to legislate a sexual morality is put rather high in most areas for moralist reasons, but that doesn't reduce the need for a line.

It's not that children lack the ability to think for themselves, it's that they do so much less than adults do, and they can be kept that way for a long time using certain coercive measures which this type of cult excels in.  And someone who lacks the ability to think rationally for themselves for whatever reason, like I've mentioned in other threads, doesn't quite fit into libertarian ethics easily.

If you raise a child to believe forthrightly that they are a sex-slave and a housework-slave, and offer them no opportunity to take in dissenting opinions, what seperates this from actual slavery?

PS: This is another reason I think homeschooling can in rare cases be used to expand a child's horizons, but in most cases will be used to constrain them.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2008, 02:59:34 PM »

So in your minds when does it become abuse that the government needs to intervene?

When a 16 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?
When a 14 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?
When a 12 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?
When a 10 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?
When an 8 year old conjugates a "consensual" spiritual marriage with a 40 year old?

IMO, the line drawn when trying to legislate a sexual morality is put rather high in most areas for moralist reasons, but that doesn't reduce the need for a line.

It's not that children lack the ability to think for themselves, it's that they do so much less than adults do, and they can be kept that way for a long time using certain coercive measures which this type of cult excels in.  And someone who lacks the ability to think rationally for themselves for whatever reason, like I've mentioned in other threads, doesn't quite fit into libertarian ethics easily.

If you raise a child to believe forthrightly that they are a sex-slave and a housework-slave, and offer them no opportunity to take in dissenting opinions, what seperates this from actual slavery?

PS: This is another reason I think homeschooling can in rare cases be used to expand a child's horizons, but in most cases will be used to constrain them.

The real problem is the "who gets to decide" problem. Other things being equal, the parent of a child cares more than a nameless stranger whose employment is justified by taking children from their natural parent. On top of that, giving that much power to the nameless stranger is asking for trouble.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2008, 03:27:57 PM »

The government only needs to intervene when the child, its parents / guardians, or the people they've entrusted to act on their behalf initiate legal action over rape.  The only difference from a rape of an adult is that the parents / guardians can press charges even if the rape victim doesn't want to.  There has to be a specific victim pressing charges, as opposed to the fishing expeditions the government currently engages in.  No victim, no crime.

The government was created to recognize and protect the rights of individuals to life, liberty, and property.  (The first begins with physical autonomy, that is birth, and the latter two begin with adulthood, which is reached upon reaching a specific age or by suing for legal emancipation.)  The government was not created to tell families how many wives / husbands they can have, when their children can start having sex, and whom they can have sex with.
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progressiveliberty

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2008, 04:27:42 PM »

So sexual child abuse, incest, etc aren't things that should be prosecuted?
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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »

Why is coercion, abuse, threatened violence and psychological programming with propaganda and lies A-OK when it's religious, and Ian and Mark will defend it all day as if it were a freely chosen lifestyle, but when the state does it, it's super-evil? There is no good guy here. I have personal, first hand experience with these people, I am descended from Mormon polygamists, I have cousins and relatives on these so-called compounds still, in fact, my great grandma lived to be 100 on the one in Mexico where I went for the grand celebration of her birthday. Creepy! To my mind, there are no good guys here, and the state actually did what anyone should have done. Unfortunately, it's the state. When Ian says "if you care so much, rescue them!" Well, that's what the state did (while depriving anyone else of the ability to do so on that scale). It may not be improving their lot, though, since now they are in the hands of an equally nefarious gang. All I can do is feel terrible for these kids. They are the victims. They had no hope. The police in those towns are wholly owned subsidiaries of the compound. They pretty much have to escape from what amounts to a prison surrounded by a hostile army or accept their lot. Religion is not something we should tolerate or support when it's "traditions" amount to the same exact kinds of crimes we deplore the state for engaging in. That runs from circumcision all the way to forced child marriage and sexual abuse. Even the mind control and threats of hell are abusive, because they deprive a person of even the awareness of other options. I think that is the most insidious kind of abuse, since it shrinks their world down so much. Since when is brainwashing not a violation of rights, a deprivation of autonomy and personhood?
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Kara

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2008, 05:53:39 PM »

A child has a right to liberty. A parent does NOT have a right to force a child into sex and/or marriage.

Due to immigrants from some 3rd world countries, there are starting to be cases in the US of parents sewing up the vagina of their daughters. Is this acceptable because it is "religious"? To say that this is protected is insane.
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Dylboz

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2008, 06:15:51 PM »

If I kept my child imprisoned in a closet for her whole life just because I'm a mean bastard, how is that any different if I try and justify it by saying I was trying to protect her immortal soul from the corrupting influence of the secular world? On the other hand, why aren't my reasonable moral objections to a vile war not sufficient to exempt me from taxation or military service, but the Amish and the Quakers get a pass because their objections are religious?
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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2008, 06:19:06 PM »

The problem here is government, but you guys are only half right.

There is a lot of abuse going on in this community. Trust me, I've been there, and I've seen the de facto sexual slavery going on, and one of the few charities I deem worthy of my money exists to assist boys as young as 12 that are run out of that community to fend for themselves, this after being taught their entire lives that the entire outside world is evil. Do any google search on "the lost boys of polygamy" and you'll see what I mean.

It comes down to this: Nobody will help them BECAUSE OF government. If someone who cared about the welfare of these kids hired a mercenary company to rescue them, he would in this case be completely justified, and in the ideal world would be given the opportunity to prove his case.

But as it stands now, a rescuer goes to jail for kidnapping. Either he can make the case that they are abused and they go to state custody, or the court disagrees and they go back to their hellhole. Either way, the end result is the same as getting government involved, plus you go to jail for kidnapping, even if you were morally justified. That removes any incentive for people to do the right thing, and instead puts the government in the role to do it badly.

Get what I mean?

This.
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Religion is metaphysical statism. I will be ruled by no man on earth, nor by any god in heaven.

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Alex Libman

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2008, 07:30:35 PM »

So sexual child abuse, incest, etc aren't things that should be prosecuted?

You think there's an actual benefit to prosecuting those family matters through government interventionism that outweighs the drawbacks and the unintended consequences??

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hellbilly

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2008, 11:52:50 PM »

ok- for the girl who may have been traumatized- she needed help. but she hasnt received help.. instead, 400+ other kids, who did not call, are being uprooted and used as tools.

we spend a lot of time talking about the kids in situations like this. i find it really odd that we dont spend more time talking about the older men and women who seek out kids. what exactly are they after, and why?

about the vagina sewing.. too sick for words really. allowing people as backwards as that to join any developed civilization will only drag society down. its pretty obvious that we were not all "created equal". leave the backward fools behind, leave some crumbs so they dont get lost, but continue ahead. -that same advice could be applied to these religious fanatics also.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Warren Jeff
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2008, 12:30:22 AM »

If it was legal, I'm sure "vagina sewing" could be done safely, painlessly, and reversibly under medical supervision, like circumcision.  As a matter a fact, given modern hygiene standards it makes a bit more practical sense than circumcision, though both are stupid.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 12:35:10 AM by Alex Libman »
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