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Author Topic: Wal Mart & Healthcare  (Read 12537 times)

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Level 20 Anklebiter

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2009, 04:01:23 PM »

>>>The fact is, without the government having as much power as they do, corporations wouldn't have the power that they do.  Never mind that the very existence of corporations in itself is a fucking sham set up so that the people who start them and run them can do anything they want without personal liability because the government allows a public company to exist as it's own entity.  Therefore, not one person is accountable for the company unless there is a financial issue.  Even then, they'll just suffer some headaches, but none of their personal artifacts get touched.

Can you give me an example of some sort of scenario for which you'd like to hold someone in the corporation personally responsible? In this scenario, specify specifically who you would want to hold responsible.

The owners of the corporations vote and elect the board of directors of the corporation, who subsequently vote and appoint the officers of the corporation, who then make the decisions for the corporation. If you are trying to hold those who take actions for the corporation, responsible for their actions, then there is no clear line of responsibility back to the corporate owners, or even the board of directors. It would be completely arbitrary to hold a minority shareholder responsible for the decisions of the corporation, most decisions of which, he won't even be aware of. Likewise, even those on the board of directors probably won't be involved with the day to day operations of the corporation. Who, for instance, would you hold responsible for the Exxon Valdez oil spill?

What we have today, is a system where the corporation is held financially liable for mistakes made by corporate personnel, and officers are personnally held criminally liable for their decisions. This is the only way you can do it, if you want to assign responsibility to the actors, and not the owners and directors who may not be involved in the day to day decisions of the corporation, or who may even disagree with many decisions the corporation makes.


Simple solution?  Dissolve the stock market and don't allow publicly owned companies.  That's what started this whole mess, among other things.

Are you out of your fuckin' mind?



Don't mind the idiots that have neither a practical experience nor the theoretical knowledge of economic activities. They'll simply make your head hurt.
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libertylover

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2009, 04:30:10 PM »

I think some of the smarter Mom&Pop operations are still in business.  They tend to find a line of products not covered in the Big Box stores.

I can't be the only person who hates walking three football field lengths past all sorts of child whine inducing garbage to get to the products I went to the store to pickup in the first place.  And that is my biggest complaint about all the Big Box Stores.  If I like any chain I would have to say it is Aldi they don't have a huge selection but they have great prices on basics.   Other than groceries and shoes I tend to buy off the internet.  My best price hasn't been through Amazon usually or I would have gone through the FTL link.  Which I might try again as I am looking for a conga for my son to play.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2009, 07:15:14 PM »

I think some of the smarter Mom&Pop operations are still in business.  They tend to find a line of products not covered in the Big Box stores.

I can't be the only person who hates walking three football field lengths past all sorts of child whine inducing garbage to get to the products I went to the store to pickup in the first place.  And that is my biggest complaint about all the Big Box Stores.  If I like any chain I would have to say it is Aldi they don't have a huge selection but they have great prices on basics.   Other than groceries and shoes I tend to buy off the internet.  My best price hasn't been through Amazon usually or I would have gone through the FTL link.  Which I might try again as I am looking for a conga for my son to play.

No, its the nightmare parking lot and Disneyland length lines for checkout that make it the worst. Its like being punished because I didn't plan my shopping efficiently enough to get it all done in one trip per month.

"Your sentence for needing more coffee creamer is to spend 30 minutes in line and get a door ding. These sentences to run concurrently."
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libertylover

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2009, 08:59:37 PM »

I think some of the smarter Mom&Pop operations are still in business.  They tend to find a line of products not covered in the Big Box stores.

I can't be the only person who hates walking three football field lengths past all sorts of child whine inducing garbage to get to the products I went to the store to pickup in the first place.  And that is my biggest complaint about all the Big Box Stores.  If I like any chain I would have to say it is Aldi they don't have a huge selection but they have great prices on basics.   Other than groceries and shoes I tend to buy off the internet.  My best price hasn't been through Amazon usually or I would have gone through the FTL link.  Which I might try again as I am looking for a conga for my son to play.

No, its the nightmare parking lot and Disneyland length lines for checkout that make it the worst. Its like being punished because I didn't plan my shopping efficiently enough to get it all done in one trip per month.

"Your sentence for needing more coffee creamer is to spend 30 minutes in line and get a door ding. These sentences to run concurrently."
You are so right on people fail to factor in their time as being valuable.

I don't even go to the big box home improvement stores opting for our local hardware store for most things.   Most times you are better off going to an actual flooring store or a lumber yard than the box store on price anyway for larger projects. 

People have tried to get me interested in going to BJs or Costco let me say I am not impressed.  I have to pay for a membership which is probably equal to any savings I might have experienced.  And really I don't have the space for a 10lb jar of peanut butter.  I know off topic but it has bothered me for some time.

Back on subject one of the best private employee healthcare plans I have ever heard of is from Wholefoods.  They set up a health savings account for the employee and if the employee stays healthy they can take that money out.  http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=3602579&page=1  It is a real shame these sorts of plans didn't take off with more businesses as they were much more cost effective.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2009, 09:15:15 PM »

Well, I do have a Costco Executive membership and I get cash back depending on how much I spend throughout the year. I usually get back enough to more than cover the membership fee.

I really only go to costco once a month and load up on things. My problem is that I really like a couple of their products/prices and if I run out between big trips then I just have to wade through the crowd to get it.
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markuzick

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2009, 06:01:47 AM »


If corporate law at times seems to approximate the way true liability, as determined in an objective court of law, is assigned, that isn't a justification for all the injustice, unfairness and distortions of the free market that come with it.


If your point is that government shouldn't create the fictitious entity, the corporation, even if the law wouldn't effectively change any type of behavior by individuals working together in companies, then that makes sense. Good point.

But then you talk about the injustice, unfairness, and distortiions that come with corporations, and that confuses me. Can you give me an example of injustice, unfairness, and distortions created by corporate law?



First businesses are suckered into incorporating in order to enjoy special privileges like immunity from personal liability that, while under some circumstances is justified, is more often than not, an injustice. Once a business sells its soul to the state, it becomes subject to a whole new set of laws, regulations, fees and corporate taxes. ( At first the corporate tax rate is another lure for businesses that consider it a tax shelter, as corporate income tax rates are lower than individual rates; the owners can "leave their money in the business", paying themselves a minimal salery, but eventually, if the business is successful and starts paying larger salaries or dividends, it becomes double taxation.)

If the corporation decides to go public, ( Ordinary businesses are denied this basic right, giving corporations an unfair advantage in the capital markets and making it easy for corporations to gobble up small businesses.)then it becomes subject to a virtual nightmare of insane bureaucratic regulations that prevent businesses from being run efficiently and helps to drive them and their jobs out of the country.

Corporate regulations also have the effect of driving the smaller corporations, less able to afford an extensive legal and regulatory compliance department, into merging into larger and more politically powerful entities that can lobby for protectionism, local, state and federal government contracts, abuse of eminent domain, public bailouts, subsidies and other corporate welfare schemes.

 
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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2009, 02:22:09 PM »

Once a business sells its soul to the state, it becomes subject to a whole new set of laws, regulations, fees and corporate taxes.

Very much this! Having incorporated once was such a traumatizing and demoralizing experience that it completely changed my way of looking at running a business and interacting with government. Before running a business I was a "libertarian" in something like the Larry Elder model. After closing that business I became more serious state-hater.
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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2009, 03:09:31 PM »

Once a business sells its soul to the state, it becomes subject to a whole new set of laws, regulations, fees and corporate taxes.

Very much this! Having incorporated once was such a traumatizing and demoralizing experience that it completely changed my way of looking at running a business and interacting with government. Before running a business I was a "libertarian" in something like the Larry Elder model. After closing that business I became more serious state-hater.
Incorporating can cause a huge amount of pain in the neck region.  There are many benefits to remaining a sole proprietor instead of incorporating your business.  Often a sole proprietorship that has a small enough number of employees is able to skirt a number of regulatory requirements that are layed on corporations.
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markuzick

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2009, 09:16:43 AM »

Once a business sells its soul to the state, it becomes subject to a whole new set of laws, regulations, fees and corporate taxes.

Very much this! Having incorporated once was such a traumatizing and demoralizing experience that it completely changed my way of looking at running a business and interacting with government. Before running a business I was a "libertarian" in something like the Larry Elder model. After closing that business I became more serious state-hater.
Incorporating can cause a huge amount of pain in the neck region.  There are many benefits to remaining a sole proprietor instead of incorporating your business.  Often a sole proprietorship that has a small enough number of employees is able to skirt a number of regulatory requirements that are layed on corporations.

That's what I do. People tell me I'm foolish, but I would rather risk personal liability and take responsibility for my own life than have to jump through bureaucratic hoops. Fortunately, what I do isn't licenced.....yet.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2009, 07:17:41 PM »

Quote from: libertylover
Other than groceries and shoes I tend to buy off the internet.

Just an aside, Zappos.com is the best site for buying shoes online. Next day shipping (and they MEAN IT) and free returns if you guess wrong on the size, and there's tons and tons of reviews on fit and such for each shoe, so you can usually make a good guess. If you know your size in a particular brand, then it's even easier. The prices are excellent and there are no sales taxes. I'm just saying, there's no reason to leave shoes out of your internet shopping list.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 07:19:15 PM by Dylboz »
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2009, 08:18:26 PM »

>>>The fact is, without the government having as much power as they do, corporations wouldn't have the power that they do.  Never mind that the very existence of corporations in itself is a fucking sham set up so that the people who start them and run them can do anything they want without personal liability because the government allows a public company to exist as it's own entity.  Therefore, not one person is accountable for the company unless there is a financial issue.  Even then, they'll just suffer some headaches, but none of their personal artifacts get touched.

Can you give me an example of some sort of scenario for which you'd like to hold someone in the corporation personally responsible? In this scenario, specify specifically who you would want to hold responsible.

The owners of the corporations vote and elect the board of directors of the corporation, who subsequently vote and appoint the officers of the corporation, who then make the decisions for the corporation. If you are trying to hold those who take actions for the corporation, responsible for their actions, then there is no clear line of responsibility back to the corporate owners, or even the board of directors. It would be completely arbitrary to hold a minority shareholder responsible for the decisions of the corporation, most decisions of which, he won't even be aware of. Likewise, even those on the board of directors probably won't be involved with the day to day operations of the corporation. Who, for instance, would you hold responsible for the Exxon Valdez oil spill?

What we have today, is a system where the corporation is held financially liable for mistakes made by corporate personnel, and officers are personnally held criminally liable for their decisions. This is the only way you can do it, if you want to assign responsibility to the actors, and not the owners and directors who may not be involved in the day to day decisions of the corporation, or who may even disagree with many decisions the corporation makes.


Simple solution?  Dissolve the stock market and don't allow publicly owned companies.  That's what started this whole mess, among other things.

Are you out of your fuckin' mind?



Evidently yes.

I just have a very bad seething hate for anything related to the stock market and how manipulated it is and how all companies on the stock market have stopped giving a crap about their customers and only care about money.  Greedy fucks.

Don't participate.  The world marches on, and you reap the rewards of better products by companies allowing people to buy their debt. 
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2009, 08:27:20 PM »

>>>The fact is, without the government having as much power as they do, corporations wouldn't have the power that they do.  Never mind that the very existence of corporations in itself is a fucking sham set up so that the people who start them and run them can do anything they want without personal liability because the government allows a public company to exist as it's own entity.  Therefore, not one person is accountable for the company unless there is a financial issue.  Even then, they'll just suffer some headaches, but none of their personal artifacts get touched.

Can you give me an example of some sort of scenario for which you'd like to hold someone in the corporation personally responsible? In this scenario, specify specifically who you would want to hold responsible.

The owners of the corporations vote and elect the board of directors of the corporation, who subsequently vote and appoint the officers of the corporation, who then make the decisions for the corporation. If you are trying to hold those who take actions for the corporation, responsible for their actions, then there is no clear line of responsibility back to the corporate owners, or even the board of directors. It would be completely arbitrary to hold a minority shareholder responsible for the decisions of the corporation, most decisions of which, he won't even be aware of. Likewise, even those on the board of directors probably won't be involved with the day to day operations of the corporation. Who, for instance, would you hold responsible for the Exxon Valdez oil spill?

What we have today, is a system where the corporation is held financially liable for mistakes made by corporate personnel, and officers are personnally held criminally liable for their decisions. This is the only way you can do it, if you want to assign responsibility to the actors, and not the owners and directors who may not be involved in the day to day decisions of the corporation, or who may even disagree with many decisions the corporation makes.


Simple solution?  Dissolve the stock market and don't allow publicly owned companies.  That's what started this whole mess, among other things.

Are you out of your fuckin' mind?



Don't mind the idiots that have neither a practical experience nor the theoretical knowledge of economic activities. They'll simply make your head hurt.

It does hurt! 
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2009, 12:36:25 AM »

Quote from: libertylover
Other than groceries and shoes I tend to buy off the internet.

Just an aside, Zappos.com is the best site for buying shoes online. Next day shipping (and they MEAN IT) and free returns if you guess wrong on the size, and there's tons and tons of reviews on fit and such for each shoe, so you can usually make a good guess. If you know your size in a particular brand, then it's even easier. The prices are excellent and there are no sales taxes. I'm just saying, there's no reason to leave shoes out of your internet shopping list.

I just can't do it. I will not wear a shoe that is even the least bit uncomfortable. Life is too short to deal with the discomfort caused but settling for a shoe that is less than perfect. I would be shipping back loads of shoes. Usually shoe shopping is something I do once a year because it is so much work. Sometimes when I find a good running shoe I will get two pairs.
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libertylover

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2009, 03:13:41 AM »

Quote from: libertylover
Other than groceries and shoes I tend to buy off the internet.

Just an aside, Zappos.com is the best site for buying shoes online. Next day shipping (and they MEAN IT) and free returns if you guess wrong on the size, and there's tons and tons of reviews on fit and such for each shoe, so you can usually make a good guess. If you know your size in a particular brand, then it's even easier. The prices are excellent and there are no sales taxes. I'm just saying, there's no reason to leave shoes out of your internet shopping list.

I just can't do it. I will not wear a shoe that is even the least bit uncomfortable. Life is too short to deal with the discomfort caused but settling for a shoe that is less than perfect. I would be shipping back loads of shoes. Usually shoe shopping is something I do once a year because it is so much work. Sometimes when I find a good running shoe I will get two pairs.
Totally agree.  Shoes are so very difficult to get the right pair in regard to the fit, style and comfort.  I have to try on so many pairs to finally find something I really like it would kill any saving just on the shear number of return shipments.   Besides if I want high end shoes I go to discount stores with last years looks.  Places like Rugged Warehouse, or Marshalls.   I am way too picky for internet shoe shopping. 

And as for food I might actually start getting some via internet.  I have just found out there is a service at our local Lowes with a personal shopper.  But still I will only trust them with, non-food items, frozen and prepackaged fairly long shelf life sorts of things.  I will still want to go in and visually inspect produce and meat and dairy items for freshness and expiration dates.  But putting the meal plan together online and getting the grocery store to put over half of my purchase together will save me time.  Also, it is helpful in putting together the specials so I can take advantage of them. 
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yamnuska

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Re: Wal Mart & Healthcare
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2009, 04:14:13 AM »

Let Wally World do health care and I just know they will come up with life enhancing penis enlargement for $99.99. Boob jobs priced by the size. The 5 minute vasectomy. Just think when you used to have to take your camera film in to some dingy photo store and wait a week to get your pictures developed, imagine the progress to be made in medicine if we let Wall Mart help. It's like performance enhancing drugs in sports, I keep telling people how they should let the athletes take whatever they want, have an open market, imagine the gains in human perfrormance. Now your tribal cheif wants universal health care, what a nitwit.
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