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Author Topic: The New Testement according to Mark  (Read 4004 times)

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coyote

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The New Testement according to Mark
« on: May 22, 2009, 05:32:21 AM »

Quite a while back on a previous show, Mark claimed that certain writtings were selected and others rejected for inclusion in the New Testament at the Council of Nicea in AD 325.

Mark is a pretty smart and reasonable guy. This just happens to be one of those urban legands I have a major pet peeve about. There definitely was *not* a decision made at the Council of Nicea about the cannon of scripture. In fact it was not even a topic of discussion. Most of the controversial writtings that were later rejected by individual churches and their bishops were not even known to the bishops who attended the Council of Nicea, let alone most Christians alive at the time. Many of the books that were supposedly banned had not even yet been written in 325 AD.

The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements arising from within the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. No one questioned the divinity of Jesus at that time either. However, many tried to claim that Jesus was not really a real human.

The myth that certain writtings were banned at a council convened by Emperor Constantine seems to have been started by people who read Dan Brown's fictional books. There is no basis in history for this myth. The closest thing to a universal church council that fixed the cannon of scripture didn't take place until the 1500's. However, this council didn't represent either the Eastern Orthodox Church or protestant christian churches in the west. Look it up...
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FTL_Mark

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2009, 09:40:35 AM »

Quite a while back on a previous show, Mark claimed that certain writtings were selected and others rejected for inclusion in the New Testament at the Council of Nicea in AD 325.

Mark is a pretty smart and reasonable guy. This just happens to be one of those urban legands I have a major pet peeve about. There definitely was *not* a decision made at the Council of Nicea about the cannon of scripture. In fact it was not even a topic of discussion. Most of the controversial writtings that were later rejected by individual churches and their bishops were not even known to the bishops who attended the Council of Nicea, let alone most Christians alive at the time. Many of the books that were supposedly banned had not even yet been written in 325 AD.

The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements arising from within the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. No one questioned the divinity of Jesus at that time either. However, many tried to claim that Jesus was not really a real human.

The myth that certain writtings were banned at a council convened by Emperor Constantine seems to have been started by people who read Dan Brown's fictional books. There is no basis in history for this myth. The closest thing to a universal church council that fixed the cannon of scripture didn't take place until the 1500's. However, this council didn't represent either the Eastern Orthodox Church or protestant christian churches in the west. Look it up...

Indeed I did read Dan Brown's book and enjoyed it thoroughly. Since then I have studied further on the topic and you are correct. There does not seem to be something as organized as a council. The History Channel did a cool thing on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EPOsTVjWlE&feature=PlayList&p=A8EA31F122215895&index=0
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MacFall

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2009, 12:18:20 AM »

Still, there were decisions made by the Constantinian church which decided what would be "scripture" and what would be "apocrypha". And I certainly do not believe that those decisions were all divinely directed.

My personal system is:
1. Read the words and works of Jesus Christ.
2. Read the rest of the Bible.
3. If an interpretation of a particular verse or passage contradicts the words and works of Jesus Christ, reject it. Same for any doctrine based on such verses.

Sadly, most Christians won't follow this system, because if everyone bases their doctrine on the words and works of Jesus and refuses to compromise that position, it would completely destroy church organization and church government as it exists today. And it would also require every Christian to oppose the state, at least in principle - and we all know that's not going to happen. As I said when I called last week, most Christians will support the state, even if it means rejecting Christ-centered doctrine.

I'm writing a book about that called Christ and Liberty. I expect to be roundly denounced as a heretic when I publish it. Should be fun.
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voodoo

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009, 01:22:47 AM »

My personal system is:
1. Read the words and works of Jesus Christ.

I'm unfamiliar with these words and works.  Where would one find these?
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MacFall

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009, 01:31:47 AM »

Sorry I have a general policy of not answering questions asked in deliberate obtuseness.
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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 01:47:43 AM »

Sorry I have a general policy of not answering questions asked in deliberate obtuseness.

As obtuse as I am, I was hoping for an answer.  It's my understanding that the bible contains translations of interpretations of Jesus' words and works.   I also understand that the translations and interpretations are divinely inspired.  Furthermore, I have a recollection of a book or books that were supposedly written by Jesus, and I thought perhaps you had more information to give.

Now, though, I've lost interest, so it's probably best that you didn't spend time compiling a reading list.
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MacFall

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2009, 01:49:17 AM »

If you honestly didn't know that I was referring to the first four books of the New Testament, then I apologize. I thought you were trying to pick a fight.
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Richard Garner

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2009, 05:52:20 AM »

Still, there were decisions made by the Constantinian church which decided what would be "scripture" and what would be "apocrypha". And I certainly do not believe that those decisions were all divinely directed.

My personal system is:
1. Read the words and works of Jesus Christ.


Is there a Gospel according to Jesus Christ? I thought the only words we have from him are second or third hard, actually in books written long after he died.
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Richard Garner

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2009, 05:53:56 AM »

If you honestly didn't know that I was referring to the first four books of the New Testament, then I apologize. I thought you were trying to pick a fight.

These are not the words and works of Jesus. They were written by other people. There is no written work by Jesus.
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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2009, 10:14:08 AM »

Nor is there any valid reason for accepting any particular book within the Bible over any other. If the OT is to be rejected as flawed, then the same criteria may be applied to the first four books (and, in fact, the entire) NT.
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jeffersonish

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 12:38:09 PM »

If you honestly didn't know that I was referring to the first four books of the New Testament, then I apologize. I thought you were trying to pick a fight.

These are not the words and works of Jesus. They were written by other people. There is no written work by Jesus.

Funny, I never focused on this fact until just this week sometime. I forget what made me focus on it, but I was thinking about it for sure. My take is this... Great care is given in at least one the gospels if not all, to illustrate that even as a young man (thinking 14-16 based on life expectancies and all at the time) Jesus was very knowledgeable of the scriptures. It seems very odd indeed that such a scholar would leave behind NO writings. The average person didn't write, but scholars most definitely did and Jesus is held out as being a preeminent scholar.

The implication I believe is, "He knew the scriptures so well because they were HIS words."

Only slightly tangential here... correct me if I am wrong, but werent' the gospels written in Greek vs. Armaic and Hebrew like the OT? Oh well, at least they weren't phony translations of "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics" (Book of Mormon) or phony translations of actual Egyptian hieroglyphics (The Book of Abraham.)
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Richard Garner

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 01:26:44 PM »

If you honestly didn't know that I was referring to the first four books of the New Testament, then I apologize. I thought you were trying to pick a fight.

These are not the words and works of Jesus. They were written by other people. There is no written work by Jesus.

Funny, I never focused on this fact until just this week sometime. I forget what made me focus on it, but I was thinking about it for sure. My take is this... Great care is given in at least one the gospels if not all, to illustrate that even as a young man (thinking 14-16 based on life expectancies and all at the time) Jesus was very knowledgeable of the scriptures. It seems very odd indeed that such a scholar would leave behind NO writings. The average person didn't write, but scholars most definitely did and Jesus is held out as being a preeminent scholar.

The implication I believe is, "He knew the scriptures so well because they were HIS words."

Only slightly tangential here... correct me if I am wrong, but werent' the gospels written in Greek vs. Armaic and Hebrew like the OT? Oh well, at least they weren't phony translations of "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics" (Book of Mormon) or phony translations of actual Egyptian hieroglyphics (The Book of Abraham.)

I don't see how the Gospels could be his word when they were written fifty years, at the earliest, after his death.
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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2009, 01:39:45 PM »

Books of Moses FTW
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fatcat

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 01:40:59 PM »

Still, there were decisions made by the Constantinian church which decided what would be "scripture" and what would be "apocrypha". And I certainly do not believe that those decisions were all divinely directed.

My personal system is:
1. Read the words and works of Jesus Christ.
2. Read the rest of the Bible.
3. If an interpretation of a particular verse or passage contradicts the words and works of Jesus Christ, reject it. Same for any doctrine based on such verses.


What about the cases where Jesus Christ contradicts himself?
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MacFall

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Re: The New Testement according to Mark
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 11:49:58 PM »

What about the cases where Jesus Christ contradicts himself?

Haven't found any yet that weren't caused by mistranslations from Greek to Latin to English or to German or Dutch or Swedish to English. Or by their having been taken way out of context by someone with a chip on their shoulder re: Christians.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 11:52:50 PM by MacFall »
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