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Free Talk Live => The Show => Topic started by: rwwright on May 25, 2010, 02:06:52 PM

Title: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: rwwright on May 25, 2010, 02:06:52 PM

There is nothing grammatically wrong with the sentence "It doesn't matter where you come from," but for some reason, in the May 20 show, Ian decided to instead say "It doesn't matter whence you come" (after a great deal of fumbling). This weird aversion to ending a sentence with a preposition has been rampant in the show lately, and it's becoming grating.

You sound like an uneducated yet arrogant prick when you adjust your wording to some asinine, unnatural construction involving the word "whence" just to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition. IT IS NOT INCORRECT TO END A SENTENCE WITH A PREPOSITION.

See, for example:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002485.html (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002485.html)
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/ending-prepositions.aspx (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/ending-prepositions.aspx)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_proper_grammar_to_end_a_sentence_with_a_preposition (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_proper_grammar_to_end_a_sentence_with_a_preposition)

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: ForumTroll on May 25, 2010, 02:13:27 PM

wat

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: BobRobertson on May 25, 2010, 02:16:24 PM

This is something up with which I will not put!

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: Alex Libman on May 25, 2010, 02:25:01 PM

If you want to be logical about language, then let's switch to the latest version of Lojban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban).

English (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=11537), on the other hand, is a Frankenstein language of convenience - it has evolved, and will continue to evolve, through ad hoc modifications spreading on the basis of utility, with little or no regard for consistency, purity, beauty, accuracy, or anything else.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on May 25, 2010, 02:52:32 PM

xu do se jbobau

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on May 25, 2010, 03:06:00 PM

Lojban appears to be retarded.  Half of the syllables are skippy.  Words are not easily said and are full of skips and pauses and strange consonants strung together. Thankfully it will never catch on.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: Disaster Monkey on May 25, 2010, 03:23:23 PM

Heh ... Gardner Goldsmith's Liberty Conspiracy would drive you totally buggy.  :lol:

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: Alex Libman on May 25, 2010, 03:27:53 PM

Quote from: Admiral Naismith on May 25, 2010, 03:06:00 PM Lojban appears to be retarded.  Half of the syllables are skippy.  Thankfully it will never catch on. Words are not easily said and are full of skips and pauses and strange consonants strung together.

It will take some getting used to, like any language, but it sounds pretty normal to me.  Consonant clusters are very efficient and are pretty easy given enough practice (unless you're Japanese) - the alternative would be weird tonal things done with vowels (tùæaors tǖaors tīeæors tèieors? (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=25213)) and that would be a lot more difficult.

Quote from: Disaster Monkey on May 25, 2010, 03:23:23 PM Heh ... Gardner Goldsmith's Liberty Conspiracy would drive you totally buggy.  :lol:

I don't listen to it because I can't stand music.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: sandm000 on May 25, 2010, 03:59:46 PM

Stop an asshole. Prepositions being about.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: sillyperson on May 25, 2010, 04:11:14 PM

Begun, this preposition war has.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: alaric89 on May 25, 2010, 04:40:56 PM

No talent for languages I have goddammit.
I'll just always add cuss word at the end my sentences of and shit.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: BobRobertson on May 25, 2010, 06:57:52 PM

How about Kelen? A language without verbs.

Seriously.

http://www.terjemar.net/kelen.php

There are serious speakers of Klingon, Na'vi, Quenya, or heck how about Esperanto?

Nihongo to hanashimasu.

This is a project I could get with.

Still, English I prefer.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: sillyperson on May 25, 2010, 10:44:33 PM

se me olvidó

Literal translation: it (the thing I lost) has forgotten itself at me

Way to dodge responsibility, eh?

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: Ecolitan on May 25, 2010, 11:36:03 PM

which word means 'it'?

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: sillyperson on May 26, 2010, 01:00:00 PM

Quote from: Ecolitan on May 25, 2010, 11:36:03 PM

which word means 'it'?

Se  = it
me = to me/at me (indirect object form)
olvido = third-person past tense of "to forget"

"it forgot itself at me"

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: mikehz on May 27, 2010, 03:42:58 AM

Fake languages always fail because they are born dead. Living languages have the flexibility to evolve. The English you speak today is not the same as the English spoken by your grandfather, and would be almost unrecognizable to someone born in Shakespeare's day. (Just look at the word “gay,” for example. Some young people today don't even know that the term had an entirely different connotation a generation ago.)

Rule fail in English because they were written largely in the 19th Century using Latin rules—which don't work for English. In reality general usage makes the rules, and this is forever evolving.

As for the stupid rule against ending sentences in prepositions, it exists in Latin, but not in English.

BTW, I was an English major. The most important grammar rule I learned is that most of the grammar “rules” are bullshit.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: Alex Libman on May 27, 2010, 07:12:08 AM

I think we need a dichotomy - a perfectly logical universal language for some uses, and a perfectly subjective freely-evolving regional languages for others.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: BobRobertson on May 27, 2010, 09:29:50 AM

Quote from: Alex  Libman on May 27, 2010, 07:12:08 AM

I think we need a dichotomy - a perfectly logical universal language for some uses, and a perfectly subjective freely-evolving regional languages for others.

English.

Use it precisely when precision is important.

Say whatcha gonna say when that does the job better.

I remember reading a shortstory where the word "goes" was used instead of "said". The first few pages hurt, then it stopped hurting.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: crossofcrimson on May 27, 2010, 10:13:24 AM

I like how, in an attempt to mock the OP, people are throwing out phrases which they believe (I guess) end in a proposition...and actually don't.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: sandm000 on May 27, 2010, 11:08:29 AM

Quote from: Alex  Libman on May 27, 2010, 07:12:08 AM

I think we need a dichotomy - a perfectly logical universal language for some uses, and a perfectly subjective freely-evolving regional languages for others.

Rape Cages for some, tiny American flags for everyone else!

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: mikehz on May 27, 2010, 11:46:39 AM

English is by default the universal language. It's the official language of more countries than any other, and more people speak English than any other language. (Forget Mandarin. While it's the first language of more people than any other, more people speak English as a second language than any other.)

World wide, it's the language of science, business, and industry. A French pilot landing at an Italian airport converses in English with the control tower.

Knowing I was going to Mexico on a trip, I spent some time brushing up on my Spanish. I really looked forward to trying it out by speaking to the locals. I was disappointed though, since virtually everyone I met spoke better English than I did Spanish.

There is a huge demand to learn English in other parts of the world. If someone in Japan or Brazil or Nigeria is studying a language, it's almost certainly English.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: rwwright on May 28, 2010, 10:24:53 AM

Quote from: Disaster Monkey on May 25, 2010, 03:23:23 PM

Heh ... Gardner Goldsmith's Liberty Conspiracy would drive you totally buggy.  :lol:

I've tried listening to it and couldn't stand it, but I don't remember that having anything to do with his grammar.

Quote from: crossofcrimson on May 27, 2010, 10:13:24 AM

I like how, in an attempt to mock the OP, people are throwing out phrases which they believe (I guess) end in a proposition...and actually don't.

Even if they did, why would that bother me?

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: crossofcrimson on June 01, 2010, 11:00:31 AM

Quote

Even if they did, why would that bother me?

I'm pretty sure I didn't imply that it would.

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: rwwright on June 02, 2010, 08:30:19 AM

Quote from: crossofcrimson on June 01, 2010, 11:00:31 AM

I'm pretty sure I didn't imply that it would.

Okay...

Title: Re: Stop being an asshole about prepositions
Post by: rwwright on June 28, 2010, 12:13:01 PM

On Saturday (1:32:18), Ian said "I totally understand and empathize with uh... from where you're coming."

Are you fucking kidding me?!