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hellbilly

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Stefan Molyneux debate
« on: June 26, 2010, 06:58:29 PM »

I'd dismissed Molyneux after watching just a few of his vids on YT.. far too emotional, to the point of creepiness even. But after hearing him on the show, I'm won over. Not on some all his views, but certainly on his religious ones.
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Rillion

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2010, 07:07:44 PM »

I'd dismissed Molyneux after watching just a few of his vids on YT.. far too emotional, to the point of creepiness even. But after hearing him on the show, I'm won over. Not on some all his views, but certainly on his religious ones.

What did he say about his religious views that you found convincing?
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hellbilly

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2010, 09:04:28 PM »

It's more the way he explained away the beliefs of others I guess, since I already share his points of view on it all.

Basically that you can't reason with people whose reasoning on faith centers around ridiculous scenarios (he used a talking snake as an example), that fringe believers who tag the name "God" on pretty much anything are incorrect, and that the burden of proof of existence lies on those who make the claim that there is a God, etc.

I think what stood out most is when he made the point that all believers are atheist to an extent in that they deny the existence of their competitors' Gods.

I like Johnson (whose laugh is infectious, I can't help but laugh when he does), but he lost that debate.
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Rillion

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2010, 09:24:58 PM »

Okay, I'm confused.  I thought Molyneux was a believer in some form or another and Johnson is not?  From what you're saying it sounds like it's the other way around. 
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hellbilly

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2010, 09:55:01 PM »

I thought the same before the debate.. hope I'm not losing it.

Johnson's stance is that you can't prove or disprove God exists. I think he added that perhaps with future technology it may be possible.

Stefan's position is that believing in a God is mentally weak.
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rwwright

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2010, 12:53:12 PM »

I'm not a big fan of religious people, but I found most of Stefan's comments incredibly clichéd and shallow.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2010, 01:33:14 PM »

I'd dismissed Molyneux after watching just a few of his vids on YT.. far too emotional, to the point of creepiness even.
This.  And he's smug and self important and blames everything on evil parents and calls everything a parent does to his kids abuse.  The guy is a nut even if he's right about a couple things.
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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2010, 01:51:19 PM »

I thought the same before the debate.. hope I'm not losing it.

Johnson's stance is that you can't prove or disprove God exists. I think he added that perhaps with future technology it may be possible.

Stefan's position is that believing in a God is mentally weak.

Johnson would be wrong, in that it's fairly easy to disprove God, at least in the usual Christian/Jewish/Islamic sense of the term. Contradictions can't exist, and since God entails a number of contradictions, then he (or it, or whatever) cannot exist.

The hard part is convincing those inculcated from birth into the belief that it is wrong.
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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 02:29:43 PM »

It's impossible to disprove the existence of a pantheistic god because by definition you would have to disprove the existence of the universe first, and that ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 02:59:38 PM »

It's impossible to disprove the existence of a pantheistic god because by definition you would have to disprove the existence of the universe first, and that ain't gonna happen.

How about spiteful mean one like Judaism worships?
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Rillion

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 03:30:25 PM »

It's impossible to disprove the existence of a pantheistic god because by definition you would have to disprove the existence of the universe first, and that ain't gonna happen.

Sure, in the same sense that it's impossible to disprove the existence of my god if my god is the toaster oven in my kitchen.  Still doesn't mean that either of them should be worshiped. 
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 06:13:52 PM »

I thought the same before the debate.. hope I'm not losing it.

Johnson's stance is that you can't prove or disprove God exists. I think he added that perhaps with future technology it may be possible.

Stefan's position is that believing in a God is mentally weak.

Johnson would be wrong, in that it's fairly easy to disprove God, at least in the usual Christian/Jewish/Islamic sense of the term. Contradictions can't exist, and since God entails a number of contradictions, then he (or it, or whatever) cannot exist.

The hard part is convincing those inculcated from birth into the belief that it is wrong.

This is what I think you're trying to say:

The Western perception of G-d mandates that he should fit all the criteria:

-All Knowing
-Infinitely Merciful
-All Powerful

But evil exists in the world. If evil exists, then G-d cannot be one of the above things. This strains the credulity of G-d.

There are many answers to this. You look it up yourself, and decide what makes sense as to how "bad things can happen to good people".
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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2010, 12:34:36 PM »

No--it goes beyond just the problem of evil. The conception of God includes a whole mass of contradictions and absurdities. God is able to travel faster than light, for instance, and is able to resolve contradictions. He can be both heavy and light at the same time (or so concluded Middle Ages clerical scholars).

Aside from this, the lack of any evidence FOR something is good enough grounds for rejecting that proposition. If I were to say to you, "There's a dragon in my back yard," you might take a look and, seeing nothing, reply, "I don't see a dragon."

"Well, that's because it's an invisible dragon. You can't see it, or touch it. In fact, you can't sense it in any way. I just know it's there!"

Saying that a thing that cannot be detected in any manner at all is the same thing as saying that it does not exist. Something that cannot be detected by any of the senses is the very definition of "nonsense."
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Rillion

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2010, 02:04:29 PM »

Saying that a thing that cannot be detected in any manner at all is the same thing as saying that it does not exist. Something that cannot be detected by any of the senses is the very definition of "nonsense."

Well, unless you want to claim that God is a concept.  But though there are a lot of theologians who are fine with that, most believers are not. 
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The Muslim Agorist

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Re: Stefan Molyneux debate
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2010, 02:37:02 PM »

The Western perception of G-d mandates that he should fit all the criteria:

-All Knowing
-Infinitely Merciful
-All Powerful


I the Arabic language God is Most Merciful and Most Powerful. There are things which are described as "inconceivable" for God's power. Such as incarnation, or procreation or other acts of contradiction.

I found the debate unsatisfying, and I didn't feel that either of them brought their best game. I've heard Stefan make much more powerful arguments, and this debate did seem like a string of cliches. I don't think he took it very seriously. I've never heard Johnson debate before, but I feel there are much stronger agnostic rebuttals to what Stefan argued.
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