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Author Topic: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers  (Read 4728 times)

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TimSully

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Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« on: July 28, 2009, 10:00:26 PM »

I stumbled on FTL about a month ago, and in that time i've managed to listen to almost all of the shows from July '08 and July '09. I like a LOT of what Mark and Ian have to say, it's really a perspective that i didn't know was out there. Previous to listening to the show my feeling on government was...fuck 'em. My feeling was, i can live my life mostly free and i can't do shit to change the government anyway, so why worry about politics, or striving to be 'fully free' for that matter. I never thought of 'changing the system from outside the system'. I'm a very hard sell and take my time to digest anything someone tells me, even if it seems cut and dried. I wasn't quite ready to move to NH just yet, but i was listening to upwards of (3) two-hour shows per day (...why do they say 'heading into the second hour 40 minutes into the show, and say that it's a 3-hour show when each show is 2hours and 1 minute?)

I think the capstone of their whole viewpoint is the "government will come and take your house or come and arrest you if you don't pay your property taxes, therefore you don't own your property, therefore you are not free" type argument. I think this is airtight, and as simple as it is, it is a very provocative argument that can really stimulate thought and conversation. It's amazing how something so obvious could have such a potential effect on the masses.

Ian has said many times that government simply would not have the ability to deal with 5% non-cooperation, and i really like the imagery that this calls up in my mind. Keene central booking overloaded with people of all ages brought in for petty crimes...not enough handcuffs to go around...a handful of Barney Fife types looking through a manual of police protocol for direction, eventually throwing their hands up and after pursuing all other avenues, giving in to logic and reason.

It's unfortunate though that this can never become a reality. What this movement represents is extremely important in my opinion, but Mark and Ian cannot suppress their extremist, alienating viewpoints for more than a week or two, so it's likely that anyone who is initially drawn to it will eventually drift away. You will never get 1 in 20 people will never volunteer to be a part of an organization that advocates fucking little kids and putting automatic weapons in the hands of convicted murderers. Maybe those two things are a shock to you (they shouldn't be) but they were both openly discussed on FTL last July.

Now i understand the entire scope in which these things were brought up and that i will likely be shunned as "liberty minus 1" for thinking that stating openly that fucking a 10 year old child is wrong or at the VERY LEAST highly counterproductive. I do understand that FTL =/= The Free State Project, however they are almost one in the same to someone like me (who found FTL first). The Free State Project is too important to let it be jeopardized by retarded statements like: "i'm a murderer...do you want 'them' to come in and rape and murder my family and for me to be defenseless!?!?" (to paraphrase Mark). Ya, i do Mark, you fucked up buddy, you had a part in killing a guy, that was your one bad, kay? To throw your own words at you (from a debate on whether or not to legalize meth) "YOU MADE A CHOICE, YOU DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES" Sure there are murderers that could be trusted with guns (i think you actually ARE one) but why the fuck would anyone want to try to figure out which ones can be?

Now for Ian...so 10 years from now, you and Julia have a beautiful daughter, she goes out for a ride on her bike and i pull up to her and ask if she likes chocolate and tell her to get in the car and she says ok...then i court her for an afternoon and buy her all of her favorite things and tell her how she can have all of this all the time if she comes to see me once a week. Then i go out and recruit 25 johns and get little Julia Jr. to come by my house the following week. They take care not to hurt her too bad, but run a train on your daughter for the better part of 8 hours - DOUBLE (one in the ass, one in the va-jay-jay), DOUBLE ANAL, TRIPLE PENETRATION (one in the ass, one in the 'mouf, one in the va-jay-jay), ASS TO MOUTH, BUKAKKE (ritual drinking of semen), CREAMPIES - i film it all and sell it for $50 per DVD. Don't worry, it's legal in your world - she's signed up for it and there are no laws against it. According to you, this world is the only one in which people are free. No laws have been broken, just your daughter is scarred for life (but has enough cash to buy ice cream for a whole month!), and you have no legal recourse. This is a good thing, yes?

Sure, murderers can get guns, and people fuck 10 year olds anyway, and YES the fact that these things are illegal create black markets in which people are harmed. However...most reasonable people would argue that these things are INTRINSICALLY BAD. Taking one potentially negative thing away does not make for much of an improvement. Would scraping the mold off of a rotten tomato make it any more palatable??? Maybe there is a minority of people who would say that it would, but nobody would say that it could be mistaken for fresh produce.

Obviously i've become pretty passionate about many of the ideas discussed on the show (in a very short time) for me to take the time to come and post this. I do understand that you had a very long and circuitous argument leading up to the whole "adults should be able to fuck third graders" comment, but i don't believe there is any argument that can be made in favor of this. There is no way of knowing how many closet pervs would come out of the woodwork to have a crack at little Juila Jr. if it were made legal. It could be ten, twenty, fifty times the amount of people previously thought.

Now it's not just that i want to debate these things, or make my dislike of them known it's that - THE FREE STATE PROJECT IS TOO IMPORTANT TO LET YOU PONTIFICATE ON RETARDED ISSUES LIKE THESE ON AIR. You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot by talking about things like these. It's verbal masturbation, it makes YOU feel better but nobody wants to hear it. I mean really. I understand that there will always be divisive issues within groups (see: titties in Keene, 7/28/09) but these are the types of things that will turn potentially interested parties right off from the whole thing. Next time you think that say...mentally handicapped children should have the right to consent to be dissected on television for the promise of a Spongebob doll - do me a favor and give it an extra day and talk with someone else about whether or not to bring it up on air.
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BonerJoe

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2009, 10:43:40 PM »

wat
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Low-Eight

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2009, 11:14:23 PM »

I only read part of this, but  :shock:
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Pvincent87

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 12:31:49 AM »

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Dylboz

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 11:39:32 PM »

For you half-wits with no patience, this is actually worth reading. I realize that you went to public school, so the closest you came to actually reading a book was the Cliff's Notes, but this isn't even an article, it's barely an essay. Gird your loins and actually read something for once. Besides, your life is far more TL;DR than this guy's post is. He's thought provoking, and I'd actually like to see people take him on. Besides me, though I may well respond.
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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 11:47:06 PM »

Read it - sounds psychotic - lacks logic.
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fatcat

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 09:28:32 AM »

failed assumptions fail
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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2009, 10:21:09 AM »

Pop psych 101 says Ian's position is because he is still trying to justify his own experience to himself.

Ian does have a problem in general with using arguments normally applied to truly undeniably victim less acts and trying to paste them on to others ranging from the merely dubious (drunk driving) to the ridiculous. Usually with a refrain against black markets.

I'd bet more on "liberty purity disease" than latent issues, but it could be either one.

On the gun thing I couldn't care less, you can tell the bad guys because they'll all get them anyway.

Some of the good guys will to they're just running a risk for it.

None of this matters because they aren't going to get close to 5% anywhere (except, maybe Keene in 20 years or so)  and I'm pretty sure most of the masochist hero types share Ian's vision anyway.

Also hilarity and outlandishness gets people to listen so you're casting a wider net. I'm not sure how that pans out though.

BobRobertson

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2009, 05:18:06 PM »

"If you're not a little bit uncomfortable with your position, it isn't radical enough. How can you be too principled? Take the most extreme position you can -- you're claiming territory you won't have to fight for later, mostly against your "allies"."
--- L. Neil Smith

Statutory Rape laws are just more arbitrary prohibitions on consensual acts.

The fact that talking about it makes people uncomfortable tells me that even if there were NO SUCH LAWS, people would still not engage in such actions widely, because it is something most people consider "antisocial".

And what about countries without such laws? Nothing. People get along just fine.

Think about it.

Edit: Spelling. Where did my auto-check go?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 10:32:41 AM by BobRobertson »
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-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

TimSully

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2009, 08:57:24 PM »

I read the whole thing and the OP's point is simple: FTL should not be perceived as the mouthpiece for the FSP, due to FTL advocating all sorts of weird stuff that ultimately turns off average well meaning citizens, while attracting dangerous personalities.


Exactly. Well, sort of. I'm fine with FTL being the mouthpiece for the FSP but it just needs to use better judgement when it comes to issues that could turn people away in droves. You can convert sheep to deeper thinking, but it's another thing entirely to think that you can convert a few out of every hundred people to believe that a world in which a 10 year old should legally be able to sign a porn contract is something that they should desperately want to be a part ofrunonsentance.

It's just...if i had an idea for utopia-lite within my lifetime, i think that many of my ideas would overlap with theirs but like...nowhere in that scenario does "should be able to fuck a ten year old" or "Charlie Manson needs to be able to buy hollow points" come up whatsoever. Nor do they for many people.
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TimSully

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2009, 09:28:10 PM »

"If you're not a little bit uncomfortable with your position, it isn't radical enough. How can you be too principled? Take the most extreme position you can -- you're claiming territory you won't have to fight for later, mostly against your "allies"."
--- L. Neil Smith

Stutory Rape laws are just more arbitrary prohibitions on consensual acts.

The fact that talking about it makes people uncomfortable tells me that even if there were NO SUCH LAWS, people would still not engage in such actions widely, because it is something most people consider "antisocial".

And what about countries without such laws? Nothing. People get along just fine.

Think about it.

Sure. But follow Harry Browne's 'Silver Rule' to these views being thrown out over the airwaves and where does that take you in 5...10 years?

20,000 people in one place who all feel strongly that grown ups and kids should be able to do the horizontal bop with impunity. If society as a whole generally rejects individuals who take this stance, it certainly doesn't bode well for a whole organization that does, no matter how many other great ideas it espouses.
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BobRobertson

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2009, 10:34:33 AM »

Sure. But follow Harry Browne's 'Silver Rule' to these views being thrown out over the airwaves and where does that take you in 5...10 years?

Well, gee, maybe to a principle of actual individual freedom.

Goodness knows we wouldn't want _that_!
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Kevin Freeheart

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2009, 03:16:48 PM »

Quote
It's just...if i had an idea for utopia-lite within my lifetime, i think that many of my ideas would overlap with theirs but like...nowhere in that scenario does "should be able to fuck a ten year old" or "Charlie Manson needs to be able to buy hollow points" come up whatsoever. Nor do they for many people.

It's a great litmus test. If it turns them away, I'm fine with it.

Ian traded sex for games when he was 10 years old. He was aware he was being a man-whore at the time. Like it or not, societies so-called victim was consenting there and I'll honor his choice.

As for felons having guns... A man was charged with two felony counts recently for organizing prostitution rings with consenting adults. You're an aweful fucking spokesman for gun freedoms if you support this man being kidnapped and tossed into a cage for owning a gun simply because he got paid for other people getting laid. Either you shit on peaceful people's ability to own guns OR you support felon firearm ownership.

Furthermore, let's assume you jump onto the whole "Well, if we fix the laws..." thing and argue that only violent crimes SHOULD be felonies... Okay, cool. However, when Joe Doakes goes out and offs someone, he does harm and creates a victim. It is the VICTIM who has a debt there, or his family/friends/contractors et cetera. Unless you're one of them, even if it's violent, how about shutting the fuck up since it doesn't affect you at ALL.

kthxbye!
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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2009, 05:30:33 PM »

I agree that none of these laws should exist (indeed, since they are fiction anyway, they DO NOT).  The only "law" that exists is the one of consequences.  Keep in mind that in the situation above where there are no laws, someone may (read probably will) cut your business short.  Since there are no laws, no one will put away the "good guy" who kills you.  This is the law of consequences.  There are always consequences to your actions whether there are "laws" or not...

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Re: Sex with little kids, Tech 9s for Murderers
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2009, 05:56:22 PM »

Read the post.

I personally think that government is inevitable, so we should have a small one, and not none.

That said, we would have a minimum of laws to ensure people are not taken advantage of.
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