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Author Topic: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction  (Read 12596 times)

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Militant

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2008, 06:32:45 PM »

Found when googling amazing randi "law of attraction."

http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-02/021607failure.html

Quote from: James Randi
BIG SECRET

Reader Scott Marshall, a proud JREF member, tells us of yet another film that presents woo-woo as fact:

Quote from: Scott Marshall
A friend at work gave me the DVD movie, "The Secret," a 90-minute movie from Australia that promises to reveal the answer to all of one's hopes and dreams. He said it was recently featured on Oprah. If Oprah covers it, it must be real, right?

In the first few minutes of the film, I was drawn in just a little by the familiar promise that it would change my life, though I was skeptical, since this had been promised by so many other works, so many times before. The movie spends a good part of its opening dramatically and slickly portraying ancient Egyptians coveting and hiding the Secret of the Ages, plus other similar exciting historical dramatizations. It brings us up-to-date with a modern boardroom of executives using their knowledge of "The Secret" to expand their wealth and power. It lists historical figures supposedly privy to this secret – Plato, Newton, Carnegie, Beethoven, Edison, Shakespeare, Einstein – although backing this up with no supporting evidence. The implication is that I could achieve similar heights of fame and accomplishment if I were to follow the upcoming advice contained on that very disk. The onscreen pundits worried me, e.g. a New Age Minister, a Quantum Physicist.

Then they revealed "The Secret."

Called "The Law of Attraction," it basically means that thinking things makes them happen because of “quantum effects.” They express this visually as a shock wave emanating from the head that, when passing things nearby, causes the world to fall in line with one's expectations: one "attracts" what one expects. The video is not content, however, to suggest that a good or bad attitude makes you see the world in a better or worse light and leads you indirectly to obtain these things you are thinking about. It's not content to suggest that these waves emanating from our brains are metaphorical. It really suggest that, for example, if you worry that you will be stuck in a traffic jam, the quantum waves from your brain will cause the traffic to jam and make you late. They back up their magical promise with irrelevant ramblings from their Quantum Physicist, and a dramatization of an Aladdin-style Genie – a 20-foot-tall black bodybuilder – granting our every wish.

That was enough for me. I've sent this disk to you since it seems to be a fairly loud cannon blast. Defenders of the rational need to know of this incoming missile from New Age woo-woos.

Thank you, Scott.  I’ll look this over and have my own comments, anon.


Randi is giving a speech this Friday at the local Center for Inquiry that I will be attending.  I might mention this pantheism bullshit in relation to the law of attraction flim flam to him. Then again... why bother.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2008, 05:32:42 PM »

Because there has been some obvious confusion, here is my explanation for Law of Attraction, Law of Deliberate Creation, and Art of Allowing.

We exist in a space time reality wherein you can be and do whatever you want.  You create your own experience, good or bad, based on your thoughts.  What you focus your thoughts (and subsequent action) on, you get.  If your thoughts are of what you do not want, you get what you do not want.  If your thoughts are on what you want, you get what you want.  If your thoughts are on what you want, but you tell yourself you can't have, you do not get it.  As this is a time space reality, the buffer of time is an important factor, as it give you time to figure out and allow exactly what you want to manifest, but you must open the doors (take action) to get it!  (Incidentally, this part is what confuses lots of critics, because some purveyors of Law of Attraction ideas focus on trinkets like money and cars, and they make it look like you just think and then someone shows up to give you a car!)

When you focus on what you want, the universe begins to set up opportunities for you.  It is up to you to identify them and take them.

Additionally "Art of Allowing" plays a critical role.  In order to get what you want, you must allow others to get what they want, instead of attempting to control and restrict them.  This probably sounds familiar as it's the core idea of liberty.  So, this part is easiest for people like us to grasp. 
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trollfreezone

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2008, 05:41:24 PM »

That's nice and all, but there are clearly some things that no matter how big your magic wand, you're simply never going to get.  It still doesn't pass the "hocus pocus" test.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2008, 06:01:27 PM »

I don't believe in Law of Attraction, I believe in the Law of think->define->believe->plan->act->persist->profit. :)

Napoleon Hill, author of "Think and Grow Rich" was a genious. Authors of "The Secret" are sensationalist new agers. They based quite a bit of their ideas on Napoleon Hill's work, but in an attempt to merge it with the New Age style religions, perverted it into barely pseudoscience and a religion, not to mention a self improvement scam.

The bad thing about this is that due to its publicity it may give a bad name to the actual provable and demonstrable philosophy by Napoleon Hill. People who get disappointed for not getting everything they desire (thinking that's enough) are then less likely to again try the real thing.

Think and Grow Rich has been sitting on my bookshelf for years and I haven't yet read it.  It has come to my attention that the original version, available in full here, is even more obviously metaphysical.

Again, I have not yet read either, so I cannot comment personally.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 06:06:17 PM »

That's nice and all, but there are clearly some things that no matter how big your magic wand, you're simply never going to get.  It still doesn't pass the "hocus pocus" test.

With that attitude, you can be sure you won't get them.

"Man can't fly!" - I bet people used to say that a lot to those who invented flight.  They figured out how to manipulate this reality to make the "impossible" possible and they didn't have to magically sprout wings to do it.

Again, this is a space time reality.  Thoughts are the origin of all wealth.  If it can be thought, it can be done.  Can we manifest things from thin air just by wishing them into existence?  Not yet, but do you think a replicator is impossible?


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trollfreezone

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 08:31:48 PM »

That's nice and all, but there are clearly some things that no matter how big your magic wand, you're simply never going to get.  It still doesn't pass the "hocus pocus" test.

With that attitude, you can be sure you won't get them.

"Man can't fly!" - I bet people used to say that a lot to those who invented flight.  They figured out how to manipulate this reality to make the "impossible" possible and they didn't have to magically sprout wings to do it.

Again, this is a space time reality.  Thoughts are the origin of all wealth.  If it can be thought, it can be done.  Can we manifest things from thin air just by wishing them into existence?  Not yet, but do you think a replicator is impossible?


Listen.  I'm as much for positive thinking as the next guy.  There's nothing wrong with scoping for possibilities.  There's nothing wrong with creating possibilities.  I watched my father, the most eternal optimist I've ever met, become utterly defeated and depressed because he was worn down by expecting the unrealistic just too many times.  As an engineer, I'm expected not only to tell clients what is possible, but also to tell them what it will cost.  I run into numbnuts all the time who will tell the clients what they want to hear because they know they'll be able to collect money in the process of hoping a miracle happens.  Such behavior is not responsibility.  It is stupidity.  For those who know the odds--or at least know that they suck--I wish them the best at trying to beat them, the rest should stop blowing smoke up peoples' asses.

This "if it can be thought it can be done" BS has broken a lot of people who didn't know they were dealing with someone from fantasyland, rather than tomorrowland.
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blackie

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2008, 08:55:07 PM »

I run into numbnuts all the time who will tell the clients what they want to hear because they know they'll be able to collect money in the process of hoping a miracle happens.  Such behavior is not responsibility.  It is stupidity.
No it's called marketing. And why I hate people who work in marketing.
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Militant

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2008, 08:55:33 PM »

Because there has been some obvious confusion, here is my explanation for Law of Attraction, Law of Deliberate Creation, and Art of Allowing.

We exist in a space time reality wherein you can be and do whatever you want.  You create your own experience, good or bad, based on your thoughts.  What you focus your thoughts (and subsequent action) on, you get.  If your thoughts are of what you do not want, you get what you do not want.  If your thoughts are on what you want, you get what you want.  If your thoughts are on what you want, but you tell yourself you can't have, you do not get it.  As this is a time space reality, the buffer of time is an important factor, as it give you time to figure out and allow exactly what you want to manifest, but you must open the doors (take action) to get it!  (Incidentally, this part is what confuses lots of critics, because some purveyors of Law of Attraction ideas focus on trinkets like money and cars, and they make it look like you just think and then someone shows up to give you a car!)

When you focus on what you want, the universe begins to set up opportunities for you.  It is up to you to identify them and take them.

Additionally "Art of Allowing" plays a critical role.  In order to get what you want, you must allow others to get what they want, instead of attempting to control and restrict them.  This probably sounds familiar as it's the core idea of liberty.  So, this part is easiest for people like us to grasp. 

This is where I disagree with you.  If you have a positive value giving attitude, people may open up more to you and provide you with greater opportunities. If you have the right mindset, you will take advantage of said opportunities and that's how the law of attraction "exists".

Talking in woo-woo terms of "the universe setting up opportunities for you" is too new age crazy for me. Thats not the proper way to describe it. Then you connect "god" to this for whatever reason.  That I STILL don't understand. If you could explain why you throw the god word into all this and consider yourself a pantheist, I'd appreciate it.
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blackie

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2008, 09:04:22 PM »

I'm a pretty negative person, but everything seems to go my way. That is why I don't believe in LoA.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2008, 10:39:17 PM »

Talking in woo-woo terms of "the universe setting up opportunities for you" is too new age crazy for me. Thats not the proper way to describe it. Then you connect "god" to this for whatever reason.  That I STILL don't understand. If you could explain why you throw the god word into all this and consider yourself a pantheist, I'd appreciate it.

You can describe it however you want, and I'll describe it how I want, regardless of whether you consider it proper.

Perhaps you should read a description of Pantheism.  To a pantheist, "god" is all that is - the universe itself.  The universe doesn't judge you or setup a list of rules for you to follow, so "god" is a poor word because of its monotheistic, paternalistic common definition.
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Militant

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2008, 11:17:53 PM »

Talking in woo-woo terms of "the universe setting up opportunities for you" is too new age crazy for me. Thats not the proper way to describe it. Then you connect "god" to this for whatever reason.  That I STILL don't understand. If you could explain why you throw the god word into all this and consider yourself a pantheist, I'd appreciate it.

You can describe it however you want, and I'll describe it how I want, regardless of whether you consider it proper.

Perhaps you should read a description of Pantheism.  To a pantheist, "god" is all that is - the universe itself.  The universe doesn't judge you or setup a list of rules for you to follow, so "god" is a poor word because of its monotheistic, paternalistic common definition.

Referring to "the universe" is still too flim flam, woo woo for me. Call it what you will, but attaching the word "god" to it in any way is worse. That being said, anything is possible.
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John Shaw

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2008, 11:27:06 PM »

That being said, anything is possible.

No.

There can't be a square circle. Or a down up. Or a geocentric universe. Or a good evil.

The nature of the universe is an objective absolute.

Perception is not reality. Otherwise an assassination by rifle would be impossible. Don't perceive the bullet? It can't kill you.

Boolsheet.
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Militant

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2008, 11:46:51 PM »

That being said, anything is possible.

No.

There can't be a square circle. Or a down up. Or a geocentric universe. Or a good evil.

The nature of the universe is an objective absolute.

Perception is not reality. Otherwise an assassination by rifle would be impossible. Don't perceive the bullet? It can't kill you.

Boolsheet.


EDIT:  I'm not giving you enough credit. You are absolutely right that the universe is an objective absolute. When it comes to perception is reality, I was talking simply in the human psychology sense in relation to marketing and the like.  If you say something enough, you can turn it into an objective reality in an average person's mind. Whether it is true or not is completely irrelevant in this given case.

In the terms in which I originally said "anything is possible", I was referring to my strongly held view that as technology rapidly increases, things that will have seemed absolutely impossible to damn near everybody, will become commonplace. I didn't properly describe my thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 12:02:51 AM by Militant »
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John Shaw

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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2008, 12:12:20 AM »

Your perception line however is kooky.

Pretty straightforward Aristotelian. Dunno what's so kooky about it.

To the greater or lesser degree a person's thought processes are in line with reality, they are better or worse off, respectively.

To the degree with which I am aware of the rampaging rhinoceros behind me, is the degree to which I am capable of surviving or avoiding a rhino mauling.

You can apply this to anything in importance from whether or not dogs can look up, (Not super important or life effecting.) to donating 10% of your income to some preachy con artist, (How bad that is for you depends on how much money you have, I suppose) to the rhino scenario. (Pretty damned important.)

Yes, there are varying degrees of importance, obviously. Having said that, woo woo is a waste of time. If you don't mind wasting time, go with the woo woo. If your time dedicated to intellectual pursuit is important to you, you should abandon the woo woo as soon and you recognize it for what it is.

The "Law" of Attraction is no law. It is woo woo nonsense and a waste of time. A rabbit hole. Whatever you want to call it. It's the same crap that Wiccans and Hermetics and crystal waving goofusses and crappy evil German philosophers have been talking about forever.

Having said that, in the grand scheme of things, it's probably unimportant and semi harmless. Unless you use your amazing mental powers of universe manipulation to try and win at the stock market or other risky gamble, of course. Then you're just another sucker who's out a bundle.

The only thing that "wanting very badly" can do for you is maybe motivate you to take action. Nothing else. Ever. Unless you can prove it with repeatable, testable evidence.

A double blind experiment- Get a coin. Write down on a piece of paper which side you want to come up more. Hand that piece of paper to a second party, in a closed envelope. Don't tell the person what the test is. Just that when it is all over, to open the envelope and read the results. Have a person in another room with a sign that lights up with a plus or minus. This person is to log the number of plusses or minuses, they have no idea what is happening apart from recording the results. Flip the coin one thousand times, each time signaling the outcome as a plus or minus. WILL the coin to land on the side you want it to. (And wrote on the paper.)

If there is a discrepancy of more than 3% in favor of your chosen side, I will personally offer five thousand dollars to start a study on the validity of the LOA.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 12:17:57 AM by John Shaw »
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Re: Scott Adams and the Law of Attraction
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2008, 12:17:50 AM »

Ian.. I need a cure for my Diabeetuss.
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