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Free Talk Live => The Show => Topic started by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 03:07:10 PM

Title: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 03:07:10 PM
I'm (really) new to Free Talk Live, I've only been listening to your podcasts for about a week (it's way too late to listen live here in the UK). However, I'm already completely hooked. You really are something special and I plan to become an AMP in the not too distant future. Anyway...

I've been working through the archives at guests.freetalklive.com and one really stand-out item for me was the interview of the late Gene Amondson that was conducted quite a while back. It was a really entertaining debate, and I found the respectful manner in which is was held refreshing. Despite the fact that Gene stood for a policy which is against our philosophy there was no vitriol, no ad hominems and you let him get his side across without rude interruptions.

I also came across this absolute gem, it's such a thrilling exchange and completely gripped me:

Free Talk Live - Ian and Wayne take on a statist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjVa0plUOF0#)

I absolutely adore FTL's approach in welcoming guests/callers with a difference of opinion. I also like the fact. After all, the truth doesn't fear questioning. Welcoming opinions which challenge our views just shows integrity and class. It is the constructive attitude that is needed in the fight for liberty. I just wish I had discovered you guys earlier.

Sorry, I've digressed from the main point of this thread, I just wanted to express my gratitude to your hard work and admiration for your proffesionalism in my first ever post. I recently came across this video from a guy called Sam Seder.

An Open Challenge To Libertarians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji4wkemwL3c#ws)

I live in the UK so this may come across as "Well, duh" but this guy seems like a pretty big deal. He has a large following on twitter - over 20k followers - and his YouTube channel has thousands of subscribers. Going through his videos, he seems to have a real issue with libertarianism. The majority of his videos are anti-Ron Paul and anti-libertarianism.

Anyway, I think it would make a superb show for FTL to accept this guy's challenge and have him on FTL. I would absolutely love to see you guys take him on, it would make for enthralling listening as you skillfully deconstruct all of his misconceptions about the philosophy of liberty. He really needs educating. :)

Any thoughts?

EDIT: @SamSeder just tweeted me: "@Samuel_E_Amer i never turn down an invite and rarely wear pants in my videos". So looks like he'd be up for it. The ball's in FTL's court now.

http://twitter.com/#/SamSeder/status/170649018727280641 (http://twitter.com/#/SamSeder/status/170649018727280641)
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 03:14:48 PM
And if you doubt this guy's ignorance and disdain for libertarianism, check these out:

Libertarians: Sam Reiterates His Open Challenge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1pd2aysirM#ws)
How to Debunk a Libertarian: Let Them Talk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE9vt6CryHo#ws)
Pwning the Libertarians...again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poT0X-JRrOE#ws)
Ron Paul's Campaign Manager Would Have Been Insured...Thanks to Obamacare (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vTwAqNrPg4#ws)
Calling Out the "YouTube Libertarians" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Htf0IgrJrs#ws)

Oh and dislike them while you're at it.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 03:36:12 PM
This is one of the worst:

Digby & Sam Talk Ron Paul, Gary Johnson & Libertarianism in 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJ_blq9AJs#ws)

Oh how I'd do anything to have Ian and Mark to have this guy on FTL and demolish his arguments.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 17, 2012, 04:39:45 PM
Of course, this guy plays by "talk radio rules."  I'm guessing he would not accept an invitation to be a guest on FTL.  Notice how he wants the debate on his show.  This is because he wants to control the mic.  The best way to do it would be to have it in a neutral environment where neither party has editorial advantage.  I'd suggest Stefan Molyneux would destroy him, but I wouldn't trust him to control the mic--particularly because his behavior seems to out him as lacking integrity.  Ron Paul himself could call his show, and he'd probably play games with the mic, but it would be a different story if the moderation was neutral.  I've been through similar experiences with mini-statists.  If not Molyneux, there are dozens of scholarly libertarians who would eat his lunch--given a neutral platform.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on February 17, 2012, 04:45:18 PM
Of course, this guy plays by "talk radio rules."  I'm guessing he would not accept an invitation to be a guest on FTL.  Notice how he wants the debate on his show.  This is because he wants to control the mic.  The best way to do it would be to have it in a neutral environment where neither party has editorial advantage.  I'd suggest Stefan Molyneux would destroy him, but I wouldn't trust him to control the mic--particularly because his behavior seems to out him as lacking integrity.  Ron Paul himself could call his show, and he'd probably play games with the mic, but it would be a different story if the moderation was neutral.  I've been through similar experiences with mini-statists.  If not Molyneux, there are dozens of scholarly libertarians who would eat his lunch--given a neutral platform.
Molyneux is a joke, but otherwise I agree with you.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 04:46:43 PM
Of course, this guy plays by "talk radio rules."  I'm guessing he would not accept an invitation to be a guest on FTL.  Notice how he wants the debate on his show.  This is because he wants to control the mic.  The best way to do it would be to have it in a neutral environment where neither party has editorial advantage.  I'd suggest Stefan Molyneux would destroy him, but I wouldn't trust him to control the mic--particularly because his behavior seems to out him as lacking integrity.  Ron Paul himself could call his show, and he'd probably play games with the mic, but it would be a different story if the moderation was neutral.  I've been through similar experiences with mini-statists.  If not Molyneux, there are dozens of scholarly libertarians who would eat his lunch--given a neutral platform.

But surely it's worth sending out an invitation. If he rejects it, then well, that just reflects badly on him. It presents him to be a coward. He would lose all shreds of credibility - challenging libertarians to a debate and then faltering when the challenge is accepted. If Sam Seder has any pride, he'd accept the invite. FTL would offer a fair debate, just like they did with Gene Amondson. It's worth putting the ball in Sam Seder's court at seeing whether he can live up to his words or merely all mouth and no trousers.

Either way, it's definately worth inviting him to a debate.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 04:53:40 PM
What it all comes down to is that fact that if Sam Seder does accept (and there are innovative ways of making things like this happen see: http://mises.org/daily/4807 (http://mises.org/daily/4807)) it would make for great content for Free Talk Radio. At the end of the day, the ultimate goal of FTL is to produce quality liberty-orientate radio, thus promoting the message of liberty and generating revenue.

This debate would do just that, I for one would promote it online like crazy.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 17, 2012, 04:54:10 PM
Of course, this guy plays by "talk radio rules."  I'm guessing he would not accept an invitation to be a guest on FTL.  Notice how he wants the debate on his show.  This is because he wants to control the mic.  The best way to do it would be to have it in a neutral environment where neither party has editorial advantage.  I'd suggest Stefan Molyneux would destroy him, but I wouldn't trust him to control the mic--particularly because his behavior seems to out him as lacking integrity.  Ron Paul himself could call his show, and he'd probably play games with the mic, but it would be a different story if the moderation was neutral.  I've been through similar experiences with mini-statists.  If not Molyneux, there are dozens of scholarly libertarians who would eat his lunch--given a neutral platform.

But surely it's worth sending out an invitation. If he rejects it, then well, that just reflects badly on him. It presents him to be a coward. He would lose all shreds of credibility - challenging libertarians to a debate and then faltering when the challenge is accepted. If Sam Seder has any pride, he'd accept the invite. FTL would offer a fair debate, just like they did with Gene Amondson. It's worth putting the ball in Sam Seder's court at seeing whether he can live up to his words or merely all mouth and no trousers.

Either way, it's definately worth inviting him to a debate.

From that standpoint, I'm sure you're right.  It would be good radio for Ian and Mark to offer him an hour on the show to "chat," and to shred him in person if he accepts, or to shred him in absentia if he ducks it or decides not to respond.

One issue, however, is that neither Ian nor Mark is a skilled debater.  Most of the hosers who call the show aren't either.  This guy might be, which is why it might be good to set it up with Molyneux, who is.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 05:06:14 PM
Of course, this guy plays by "talk radio rules."  I'm guessing he would not accept an invitation to be a guest on FTL.  Notice how he wants the debate on his show.  This is because he wants to control the mic.  The best way to do it would be to have it in a neutral environment where neither party has editorial advantage.  I'd suggest Stefan Molyneux would destroy him, but I wouldn't trust him to control the mic--particularly because his behavior seems to out him as lacking integrity.  Ron Paul himself could call his show, and he'd probably play games with the mic, but it would be a different story if the moderation was neutral.  I've been through similar experiences with mini-statists.  If not Molyneux, there are dozens of scholarly libertarians who would eat his lunch--given a neutral platform.

But surely it's worth sending out an invitation. If he rejects it, then well, that just reflects badly on him. It presents him to be a coward. He would lose all shreds of credibility - challenging libertarians to a debate and then faltering when the challenge is accepted. If Sam Seder has any pride, he'd accept the invite. FTL would offer a fair debate, just like they did with Gene Amondson. It's worth putting the ball in Sam Seder's court at seeing whether he can live up to his words or merely all mouth and no trousers.

Either way, it's definately worth inviting him to a debate.

From that standpoint, I'm sure you're right.  It would be good radio for Ian and Mark to offer him an hour on the show to "chat," and to shred him in person if he accepts, or to shred him in absentia if he ducks it or decides not to respond.

Indeed. Even if Sam Seder bottles it, there are good ways to make this happen. Although the scale would be smaller, a leaf could be taken from Bob Murphy's book.

From: http://krugmandebate.com/ (http://krugmandebate.com/)

"Murphy has challenged Krugman to a public debate on Austrian vs. Keynesian business cycle theory. He has set up a campaign, which currently has raised $60,000 in pledges. If Krugman actually debates Murphy, then the money goes to a food bank in New York City. If Krugman never debates, no one's credit card is ever charged; people are only going to be charged for their pledge, when Krugman actually debates."

This is the innovative method used: http://www.thepoint.com/campaigns/campaign-0-1240 (http://www.thepoint.com/campaigns/campaign-0-1240) Being realistic, I reckon about $50-100 could be pledged.

If Sam Seder is as compassionate as he professes to be, surely he wouldn't prevent charity from recieving $100 in pledges merely because he didn't have the guts to match his mouth?

As long as FTL are game (and why not?), I reckon we can apply the necessary pressure if needed to make sure Sam Seder accepts.

Anyway, perhaps I'm being a little unfair on Sam Seder. For all I know, he might be a man of integrity and live up to his word if FTL invite him to debate. We may not need any persuasion and all that needs to happen is for FTL to get in touch.

Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 17, 2012, 05:10:43 PM
He doesn't seem like a man of integrity, but I guess the sample of his work (the one video I watched for five minutes) is pretty small to make such a judgment.

I do think you're correct about the krugmandebate thing...he can pretend to be "above it," but the fact is, it's for a "good cause" and he looks like every bit the "fake" of a "nobel prize winning economist" to dodge it.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 05:39:31 PM
He doesn't seem like a man of integrity, but I guess the sample of his work (the one video I watched for five minutes) is pretty small to make such a judgment.

I agree, but hopefully our judgement will be proved wrong. :D I really want to see the debate happen, I reckon it would make for great listening. Without a doubt, it really would be really entertaining. Plus, the guy's ignorance annoys me, he needs educating. :)

I do think you're correct about the krugmandebate thing...he can pretend to be "above it," but the fact is, it's for a "good cause" and he looks like every bit the "fake" of a "nobel prize winning economist" to dodge it.

You're spot on. I think the fact that this would be on a smaller scale makes it much more effective. That is to say, Paul Krugman can hide behind his stature - he can be forgiven by his supporters for ignoring it much more easily because he has 'bigger fish to fry' (not from our perspective of course). For the Murphy-Krugman initiative, the amount of pledges has to reach a considerable amount for it to gain traction. The pledged sum has to be sizeable enough to match the profile of Krugman - only then would the media, the general public and thus Krugman himself take interest.

Sam Seder has no such recourse. The scope of the libertarian grassroots is powerful enough for us to publicise the initiative to a high enough proportion of his liberal audience to cause him discomfort at the fact his cowardice is preventing money going to the poor. I have no doubt that this would really catch on in libertarian circles. Let's just say libertarians won't take to kindly to those videos posted above and would be motivated to make sure that his empty challenge blows up in his face.

Don't forget to take into account the fact that Sam Seder's fans would also want to see this debate go ahead for the same reason as us - we as listeners want entertainment. They'll be as confident in their Sams's ability to defeat FTL (and would want to see happen) just as much as we want to see FTL defeat him.

Furthermore, Sam Seder cannot plea ignorance about it since he knows (and in fairness checked out) the idea: http://twitter.com/#/SamSeder/status/170618310000513024 (http://twitter.com/#/SamSeder/status/170618310000513024)

To conclude, I think this is extremely workable. All FTL need to do is accept the challenge and invite Sam Seder to appear on FTL. If he accepts the invite, then happy days. We all have a quality episode to look forward to. Hopefully, the debate would live up to it's potential, which I'm sure it will as FTL hasn't dissapointed yet, and would go viral (and therefore exposing FTL to a huge number of libertarians) which can only be a good thing for the show's future. :)

And if Sam Seder rejects, then well, it'll probably be the biggest mistake the guy ever makes in his career.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on February 17, 2012, 05:57:07 PM
I don't know who this guy is, and it seems to me that you're just trying to pump this no-name liberal hack up on this forum to boost his ratings.  This is pretty crappy advertising.  How many times do you have to repeat his name over and over?
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 06:11:10 PM
I don't know who this guy is, and it seems to me that you're just trying to pump this no-name liberal hack up on this forum to boost his ratings.  This is pretty crappy advertising.  How many times do you have to repeat his name over and over?

Really? You serious? I mean come on think it through. If what you were saying were true why would I choose FTL BBS to pimp him - not really the target audience and large traffic here is it? How would I know about KrugmanDebate which is generally only known by freedom activists? Why would I spend so long on the previous posts?

All it would have taken is one quick click on the link in my signature and you would have saved yourself a great deal of embarrasment at the illogical conclusion you have jumped to.

Anyway, if you want some proof:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/search.php?searchid=5507778 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/search.php?searchid=5507778)
www.twitter.com/samuel_e_amer (http://www.twitter.com/samuel_e_amer)

I'm surprised I even need to provide evidence looking back at my posts.

I only discovered Sam Seder today as well. I discovered him via the video referals after watching this topical video: Mark Levin Gets Canned From WSPD Radio For Lies About Ron Paul, Hilarity Ensues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d1oBdMcYtE#)

If you're still not satisfied that what I claim in the OP is accurate, I made this post in the Ron Paul Forums before I even discovered Sam Seder:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?361364-Mark-Levin-You-Can-t-Fire-me-I-Quit!-(Over-Lies-About-Ron-Paul)&p=4190342&viewfull=1#post4190342 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?361364-Mark-Levin-You-Can-t-Fire-me-I-Quit!-(Over-Lies-About-Ron-Paul)&p=4190342&viewfull=1#post4190342)

Why do you have to be so hostile? All I've merely done is suggested something for Free Talk Live after stumbling across this guy after watching a video that was posted on the RPF and tweeted about by @FreeTalkLive.

Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on February 17, 2012, 06:35:03 PM
 @SamSeder just tweeted me: "@Samuel_E_Amer i never turn down an invite and rarely wear pants in my videos". So looks like he'd be up for it. The ball's in FTL's court now.

http://twitter.com/# (http://twitter.com/#)!/SamSeder/status/

Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: jerry on February 17, 2012, 09:54:35 PM
I'm curious where the pictures of Ron Paul that are added to the start of Seder's videos came from?

That's my wife standing behind Dr Paul.  (she's a Dr. too)
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 17, 2012, 11:53:24 PM
I think it might be better to have someone such as Molyneux do the debating, part live on their show and part live on his, though, as he's an experienced debater, and I'm not sure about either of them.  I've got a really strong feeling Stef would do it.  I'm confident he'd wipe the floor with the guy, too.  I've seen him wipe the floor with someone who I agreed with on a particular issue (and, still do, but his debating is far better.)  The issue wasn't really a libertarian issue, BTW, at least in my opinion.

Also BTW, this has a sort of "let's you and him fight" appearance to it.  Libertarians seem to be good at recommending that other people do things for liberty, and Ian, for one, is fond of saying "You want it done, why not do it yourself."  I'm thinking Ian and Mark might be happy to sit back and listen to you debating Seder.
Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Crotale on April 03, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
Also BTW, this has a sort of "let's you and him fight" appearance to it.  Libertarians seem to be good at recommending that other people do things for liberty, and Ian, for one, is fond of saying "You want it done, why not do it yourself."  I'm thinking Ian and Mark might be happy to sit back and listen to you debating Seder.

How am I meant to debate him myself? I don't have such a great platform like Free Talk Live? Why on earth would Sam Seder want to debate me anyway? The reason he would (if he's not a coward) debate Ian and Mark is to air his views to a large public audience.

Title: Re: Respond to Sam Seder's open challenge to libertarians
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on April 04, 2012, 01:40:52 PM
Also BTW, this has a sort of "let's you and him fight" appearance to it.  Libertarians seem to be good at recommending that other people do things for liberty, and Ian, for one, is fond of saying "You want it done, why not do it yourself."  I'm thinking Ian and Mark might be happy to sit back and listen to you debating Seder.

How am I meant to debate him myself? I don't have such a great platform like Free Talk Live? Why on earth would Sam Seder want to debate me anyway? The reason he would (if he's not a coward) debate Ian and Mark is to air his views to a large public audience.

Get one.  The liberty movement is full of great ideas for OTHER people to implement, don't ya know?