Religion = Horseshit

[Richard Garner]

What I am saying is that logical and scientific thinking will always fail to address some of the issues that I am talking about. The solution to the problem is to think on a more dynamic level -- a level which involves a creative and mystical approach. We cannot find a scientific/logical explanation that satisfies the problem of existence, and how it comes about. Regardless, it still exists! There is no denying this bizarre manifestation.[/quote]

I'm confused; to what are you referring when you say "it still exists" and "this bizarre manifestation"? You have yet to provide any reason to believe that God exists or is manifest, so I think you are referring to the universe, but the existence of the universe is not in doubt.

My school likes to entertain the idea that a "mind" plays the major role in the manifestation of things. The "building blocks" may be a physical manifestation of a "Mind". Such a mind can then direct the building blocks on what to do. Mind and matter must be dependent on each other, in order for any communication to take place.

I have no idea how this "mind" was made, or when it was made. A mystic revelation is required, if you would like to explore this "Mind" in better detail.

But why presume that "mind plays the major role in the manifestation of things" in the first place?

[mikehz]

So, the idea that living things have evolved over millions of years following known laws of biology is difficult to believe. As opposed to the magic theory that they just popped into existence out of nothing...

You are not paying attention, Mike. According to your precious science, it is not known as to how your precious living things originated. If the building blocks of life created your precious evolved beings, then what created the building blocks of life? Where did the building blocks of life come from? If you can't answer this question, then Evolution Theory is just a novelty, and no better than the Magic Theory of dancing unicorns and leprechauns magically blowing the building blocks of life, out of their noses, so that you can have your precious Evolution Theory.

But that is precisely how religion most likely got going, isn't it? We don't know how something works, and so attribute that thing to some god. God was probably a sort of shorthand for explaining things long ago. Where did the earth come from? God did it. Why does life exist? God made it. Why is some tradition in effect? God ordered it.

Science works differently. First, it acknowledges that some things are unknown. You're correct in assuming that we don't know how life started. However, science does postulate a number of theories on the subject--none of which require magic.

[pete1061]

This is a debate that can go on forever, mainly because everyone has a different definition of religion, spirituality and God.

For me, religion and spirituality are completely different.

Religion is merely a political tool to manipulate groups of people to do the bidding of a person or a group of people.
Religion preys on the deep seeded fear of death that so many of us have. "If you don't do what we say, the boogeyman will curse you to an eternity in the most horrible place imaginable."

Spirituality develops naturally in creatures such as humans who are well aware of the fact that we will die some day.
We all make up our own story as to what will happen on that day, so we can get to sleep at night.
But deep inside we really do not know what will happen, so someone comes along with an air of legitimacy and help quell our fears.

Where does God come into all of this? Who or what is this "god"?
God could easily be all that is not known, that missing fudge factor that explains everything.
There are well over 6 billion definitions of "god" out there, and there is no way everyone will agree.

We're all just chasing our tails here.
There are way too many unknowns, many things will never be known.

all in all, religion/spirituality isn't horseshit.
It's completely natural to seek an explanation of those things beyond understanding.

Of course, using fear & violence to manipulate others into serving you is Horseshit.
History has many, many examples of assholes using religion as an excuse to control others.

[fatcat]

It's completely natural to seek an explanation of those things beyond understanding.

There's a way to do that, and it doesn't involve making bullshit up off the top of your head, its called the scientific method.

Spirituality develops naturally in creatures such as humans who are well aware of the fact that we will die some day.
We all make up our own story as to what will happen on that day, so we can get to sleep at night.
But deep inside we really do not know what will happen, so someone comes along with an air of legitimacy and help quell our fears.

I know exactly what its like after you die. Exactly what its like before you were born, I.E non existence.

To quote Mark Twain:

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

[Keels]

Kind of "on topic"

But I read this today and it made me lol...the video is great...”It should be regulated!!!"

http://www.azfamily.com/yahoo_rss/stories/Phoenix-news-060409-billboard-god-atheist-controve.4c473c82.html?ocp=1#slcgm_comments_anchor

Awesome.

Stupid Christians are getting all pissed off and want it taken down. HA-HA

[pete1061]

There's a way to do that, and it doesn't involve making bullshit up off the top of your head, its called the scientific method.

And yet so many people will happily go following some guy who makes up bullshit off the top of their head.
many more than the followers of the religion of science.

I know exactly what its like after you die. Exactly what its like before you were born, I.E non existence.

Thats fine for you.
But, how do you know for sure what happened before you we're born?
How does anyone know? We lack the equipment necessary to measure such things.
Science does not know everything, not even close.
As a matter of fact, science generates more questions than answers.

Also scientists using the scientific method can't really be trusted. many times, anomalies are ignored.
Most scientists do work to support the agenda of whoever is funding them, and if they do research that challenges the status quo, they lose their funding if not their job.
Science adheres as rigidly to dogma as Christianity, Judaism, or Islam does.
Heretics of science get shunned just as much as in other religions.

Science is just another religion.

[Dylboz]

Science is NOT a religion. That is the most asinine, deluded, idiotic and willfully ignorant thing you could say about it. It actually demonstrates mendacity on your part, because no one could really be that fucking stupid. That's Gene the Xtian Anarchist territory, and he's NOt known for his intellectual honesty. So, you must be trying, for some unfathomable but obviously nefarious reason, to make a disingenuous conflation of these two vastly different ways of thinking about the world and our individual relationship to it, especially our understanding of reality. pete1061, you are now officially in the Horseshit bin with Luke.

[mikehz]

Science is constantly changing as new data becomes available.

I recall that when I was a kid, the concept of continental drift was held in great doubt by most geologists. Now, if--as Pete would have it--science rigidly adheres to one notion and never lets go of it, then the idea of fixed continents ought to still be dominate. But it's not. Under the light of newer research, just about every current geologist now accepts the theory.

Almost every single idea now held by science has come from giving up older ideas that were proved incorrect by the evidence. In science, the rule is "put up, or shut up." In religion, it's just "shut up--or the gods will grow angry."

[fatcat]

Science does not know everything, not even close.
As a matter of fact, science generates more questions than answers.

"Science" doesn't know anything, "Science" is just a method for discerning truth from falsehood.

The closest you can come to "science" as something with a position on anything is the "scientific community", which is far from any sort of dogmatic unified group. Pick up a peer review journal some time and see the amount of studies that are analyzed and criticized by other scientists.

Also claiming that "science does not know everything" really demonstrates your ignorance on the matter. Science is not an answer like religions claim to be, its not a set of beliefs or knowledge, its a set of principles used to improve the veracity of our knowledge. Complaining "science" doesn't know everything, is like complaining that modern medicine hasn't cured all illnesses yet.

Introduction to the Scientific method.

I know exactly what its like after you die. Exactly what its like before you were born, I.E non existence.

Thats fine for you.
But, how do you know for sure what happened before you we're born?
How does anyone know? We lack the equipment necessary to measure such things.

You're an idiot.

[mikehz]

We know what happened before we were born through something called "history," which does not claim exact knowledge, but only reasonable  knowledge.

[pete1061]

This thread is a pointless argument.
An argument which has been going on since the dawn of time.
It will never end.

It's all about our personal beliefs.
For me, my personal belief is that science is an atheistic religion.
For me religion has nothing to do with god or spirituality.
Just a group of people who say that their way is the only way.

This topic = horseshit.

and fatcat, who made you the absolute authority anyhow?
You just come off as a self important jackass.

[anarchir]

An argument which has been going on since the dawn of time.

Nope.

[mikehz]

A few centuries ago, when Churches ruled Europe, if you tried to bring up this argument, you were hung.

[fatcat]

It's all about our personal beliefs.
For me, my personal belief is that science is an atheistic religion.
For me religion has nothing to do with god or spirituality.
Just a group of people who say that their way is the only way.

and fatcat, who made you the absolute authority anyhow?
You just come off as a self important jackass.

Who called me an absolute authority? I certainly didn't.

I just happen to be smart enough to know what science actually is, and its not "Just a group of people who say that their way is the only way".

I already linked you once to a fairly brief overview of what science actually is. It's not a group, its not a knowledge base, its not a set of dictats, its a set of fluid principles for discerning reliable information about the universe.

Science can never be wrong about anything because science isn't a point of view. The only thing that can be wrong is a theory or an opinion, and the only way you can come to the correct or more correct (as science works on working models not absolute certainty), is by using the scientific method. The scientific method itself has been refined over the last thousands of years. Every part of science is centered around getting a better understanding of the universe.

Thats what makes people like you so fucking stupid when you say stuff like "science can't answer everything". If something exists, then it has to be provable by science. People only like saying it can't because A) they don't know what science is and B) if they acknowledge what science really is, it means they can't believe in stupid bullshit like gods and healing crystals, which are believed on feelings and anecdotal evidence, not fact, which means they exist outside of "the realm of science" because they're just made up.

 If we come up against something that our current theories can't explain, then we adapt them to fit the new information. There have been many discoveries that have completely changed, such as wave-particle duality or quantum entanglement

You know what happened? Scientists didn't say, well this doesn't fit with what we already know so it can't possibly be right, it was observed, tested, retested and made subject to peer review, and a new working model of physics was born that encompassed this new information.

I pray to science that you're really just a troll, cause your "everything is just a personal belief" attitude is really fucking stupid.

[Pvincent87]

I pray to science that you're really just a troll, cause your "everything is just a personal belief" attitude is really fucking stupid.

nod