Religion = Horseshit

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

Indeed, the subject of a prime mover could stand as a very interesting hypothesis to explain the origin of the universe. However, considerable developments in quantum physics and Astrology coupled with the genius of stephen hawking have demonstrated that there is considerably more evidence at this time which points a universe with no prime mover which has been expanding since the big bang.

Astrology?!

Yeah I saw that too and immediately said WTF?

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

I don't think any serious philosopher has bought the "complex universe" (argument from design) argument for God in some centuries. It's been so completely refuted I'm surprised anyone bothers with it anymore. It is very old, going back at least to the Roman Cicero. Sometimes referred to as the teleological argument, it assumes a number of different forms, all of which follow pretty much the same theme: that the universe is far too complex not to have been carefully planned by some vast intelligence.

   The problem is that any such creator must of necessity be even more complex than its creation. But if all complex things require a designer, who designed God? If God existed forever, then we can just cut out the middleman and say that it is the universe that has always been around.

   There is a slightly different version of design which states that the world is just such that we can manage to live in it, and if it were only a little bit different life would be impossible. When we look at the world in detail we see that everything works toward the best possible end. Now, inanimate matter cannot direct its own destiny and so must be controlled by God. Bertrand Russell expressed the typical atheist disdain for this approach:

“When you look into this argument from design, it is a most astonishing thing that people can believe that this world, with all its defects, should be the best that omnipotence and omniscience have been able to produce in millions of years. I really cannot believe it. Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?”

I definitely do not approve of the complex universe argument either. 

God is that one thing that did not need to be created.  Call it what you will, I call it God.

[mikehz]

I definitely do not approve of the complex universe argument either. 

God is that one thing that did not need to be created.  Call it what you will, I call it God.
[/quote]

Go ahead. Pantheism, then. But, you cannot rationally ascribe to the unconscious cosmos all of the attributes of the Christian God. Unlike the famed deity, the universe does not care what you think or believe, won't punish you for believing in some other universe, and won't reward you for believing in it.

[anarchir]

Dear world,

Unlike the famed deity,
the universe does not care what you think or believe,
won't punish you for believing in some other universe,
and won't reward you for believing in it.

Amen.

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

I definitely do not approve of the complex universe argument either. 

God is that one thing that did not need to be created.  Call it what you will, I call it God.

Go ahead. Pantheism, then. But, you cannot rationally ascribe to the unconscious cosmos all of the attributes of the Christian God. Unlike the famed deity, the universe does not care what you think or believe, won't punish you for believing in some other universe, and won't reward you for believing in it.
[/quote]I never said you could.  Then again I'm not Christian either.

[Richard Garner]

God is that one thing that did not need to be created.  Call it what you will, I call it God.

You said, this morning "All things have a beginning." Are you now denying this? If so, what happens to your argument? It seems to collapse.

Why say that God is the only thing that did not need to be created, and not the universe?

[Pvincent87]

God is that one thing that did not need to be created.  Call it what you will, I call it God.

You still have no evidence of a God. You still only have a hypothesis.

[mikehz]

Asserting that "God is the one thing that did not need creating" is simply a blank statement without giving any reason WHY it ought to be accepted over the cosmos having always existed. There is simply no compelling reason for taking this statement to be true.

In fact, the idea that the universe has always existed is preferred, since it is simpler. Following Occam's razor (the simpler explanation is the better explanation), whatever argument requires fewer steps is more likely the correct one.

THEIST POSITION

1) The universe exists.
2) God created the universe.
3) God has always existed.

ATHEIST POSITION

1) The universe exists.
2) The universe has always existed.

The second of these has fewer steps, and therefore is the more preferable.

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

God is that one thing that did not need to be created.  Call it what you will, I call it God.

You still have no evidence of a God. You still only have a hypothesis.

Disprove it then.

[Rillion]

God is that one thing that did not need to be created.  Call it what you will, I call it God.

You still have no evidence of a God. You still only have a hypothesis.

Disprove it then.

Not very familiar with how these things work, are you?

[Dylboz]

Sure he is, but then Joel is wildly dishonest, a proven liar, time and again. He's as bad as Gene.

[hellbilly]

Sure he is, but then Joel is wildly dishonest, a proven liar, time and again. He's as bad as Gene.

But he has great taste in music

[Pvincent87]

Disprove it then.

That's the problem, you can't disprove the existence of any deity. Has anyone ever proved that any deity anywhere doesn't exist? That's right...you can't.

Do you have any evidence which supports your hypothesis?

[anarchir]

Disprove something that is invisible and cannot be observed by any of the five senses...that sounds tough.

[Pvincent87]

Zeus is lord of all things in this world.

Disprove that.