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Author Topic: Religion = Horseshit  (Read 24931 times)

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Pvincent87

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2009, 07:05:10 AM »

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The fact that it exists at all is evidence that there is a prime mover, a first creator, God.  Doesn't prove theistic beliefs though, but it does prove that something created it it.

Well, your prime mover hypothesis is interesting. Unfortunately I see no evidence to support your hypothesis.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2009, 07:11:27 AM »

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The fact that it exists at all is evidence that there is a prime mover, a first creator, God.  Doesn't prove theistic beliefs though, but it does prove that something created it it.

Well, your prime mover hypothesis is interesting. Unfortunately I see no evidence to support your hypothesis.
All things have a beginning.  Your bread that you had with dinner had a beginning, the flour had a beginning, the earth on which it was grown had a beginning, the planet on which it lies had a beginning, the solar system containing the planet had a beginning, the galaxy containing the solar system had a beginning, and the universe also had a beginning.  That thing or force or god or whatever you want to call it, is that beginning.  The prime mover.  That which need not be created, that existed prior to all else, that is what I refer to as God.  Seems like a pretty solid logical proof to me.
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fatcat

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2009, 07:36:05 AM »

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The fact that it exists at all is evidence that there is a prime mover, a first creator, God.  Doesn't prove theistic beliefs though, but it does prove that something created it it.

Well, your prime mover hypothesis is interesting. Unfortunately I see no evidence to support your hypothesis.
All things have a beginning.  Your bread that you had with dinner had a beginning, the flour had a beginning, the earth on which it was grown had a beginning, the planet on which it lies had a beginning, the solar system containing the planet had a beginning, the galaxy containing the solar system had a beginning, and the universe also had a beginning.  That thing or force or god or whatever you want to call it, is that beginning.  The prime mover.  That which need not be created, that existed prior to all else, that is what I refer to as God.  Seems like a pretty solid logical proof to me.

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Just because most things in human existence have a beginning, DOES NOT mean that the universe itself has a beginning

In order to prove the universe had a beginning, you would have to show where the beginning is and that theres nothing before that. So whats the beginning of the universe?

As far as human knowledge goes, we don't know what happened before the big bang. We understand very little about space-time, and its entirely possible that the universe  is cyclical, and has no beginning or end, or that the cause or origin is not even understandable to humans.

We already know that what we perceive as "time" is effected by the gravitational pull of heavy objects, theres no reason to assume that the way time and causality works on earth is the same way it works on every level of the universe.

Also, calling that beginning of the universe "god" whatever it is, is a totally lame cop out. God already has a well established definition, it just seems like a pathetic attempt to keep hold of the "god" label at any cost.

Why not call the creation of our sun through gravitational compression of molecular gases "god"? Why not call the birth of a child "god"? Why not call the death of a star satan?

Because its fucking stupid, thats why.

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That which need not be created, that existed prior to all else, that is what I refer to as God. 

Theres no proof such a thing exists or has ever existed.
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Pvincent87

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2009, 09:28:54 AM »

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That thing or force or god or whatever you want to call it, is that beginning.  The prime mover.  That which need not be created, that existed prior to all else, that is what I refer to as God.  Seems like a pretty solid logical proof to me.

Indeed, the subject of a prime mover could stand as a very interesting hypothesis to explain the origin of the universe. However, considerable developments in quantum physics and Astrology coupled with the genius of stephen hawking have demonstrated that there is considerably more evidence at this time which points a universe with no prime mover which has been expanding since the big bang.

Your hypothesis is interesting but you must support your claim with evidence. I also feel that your argument does not suffice as a logical proof of the existence of God because everything else I observe in the world around me contradicts your primary mover hypothesis.
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NHArticleTen

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2009, 09:54:42 AM »


hey...some folks just need some god somewhere so that they can pass off their global murderfest guilt...
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Pvincent87

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2009, 10:03:47 AM »

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all things have a beginning.
Everything I know about does have a beginning. There is much however, that I do not know about. Can you prove that the universe had a beginning? If you cannot, I will view your proof as flawed. What about black holes?

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the universe also had a beginning.
Prove it.
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Pvincent87

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2009, 10:10:22 AM »

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hey...some folks just need some god somewhere so that they can pass off their global murderfest guilt...

I don't think you can prove the veracity of this claim. I tend to think that belief in a deity stems from ritualistic nonsense from thousands of years ago. It is time for man to take the next step in his evolution. It is time to reject the Neanderthal notion of an omnipotent deity and choose reason over primal superstition!
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Rillion

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2009, 10:40:55 AM »

Indeed, the subject of a prime mover could stand as a very interesting hypothesis to explain the origin of the universe. However, considerable developments in quantum physics and Astrology coupled with the genius of stephen hawking have demonstrated that there is considerably more evidence at this time which points a universe with no prime mover which has been expanding since the big bang.

Astrology?!
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mikehz

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2009, 10:43:36 AM »

I don't think any serious philosopher has bought the "complex universe" (argument from design) argument for God in some centuries. It's been so completely refuted I'm surprised anyone bothers with it anymore. It is very old, going back at least to the Roman Cicero. Sometimes referred to as the teleological argument, it assumes a number of different forms, all of which follow pretty much the same theme: that the universe is far too complex not to have been carefully planned by some vast intelligence.

   The problem is that any such creator must of necessity be even more complex than its creation. But if all complex things require a designer, who designed God? If God existed forever, then we can just cut out the middleman and say that it is the universe that has always been around.

   There is a slightly different version of design which states that the world is just such that we can manage to live in it, and if it were only a little bit different life would be impossible. When we look at the world in detail we see that everything works toward the best possible end. Now, inanimate matter cannot direct its own destiny and so must be controlled by God. Bertrand Russell expressed the typical atheist disdain for this approach:

“When you look into this argument from design, it is a most astonishing thing that people can believe that this world, with all its defects, should be the best that omnipotence and omniscience have been able to produce in millions of years. I really cannot believe it. Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?”
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NHArticleTen

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2009, 10:48:24 AM »


[sarcasm]timecube[/sarcasm]
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Pvincent87

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2009, 11:07:44 AM »

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Astrology?!
Doh, I met Astronomy. I don't proof-read this stuff! I was specifically talking about the hubble telesclope which I think recently? discovered galaxies as far as the eye can see.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 02:27:22 PM by Pvincent87 »
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Richard Garner

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2009, 12:20:53 PM »

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Astrology?!
Doh, I met Astronomy. I don't proof-read this stuff! I was specifically talking about the hubble telesclope which I think recently? discovered universes as far as the eye can see.

No, galaxies, not universes.
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Richard Garner

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2009, 12:23:54 PM »

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The fact that it exists at all is evidence that there is a prime mover, a first creator, God.  Doesn't prove theistic beliefs though, but it does prove that something created it it.

Well, your prime mover hypothesis is interesting. Unfortunately I see no evidence to support your hypothesis.
All things have a beginning.  Your bread that you had with dinner had a beginning, the flour had a beginning, the earth on which it was grown had a beginning, the planet on which it lies had a beginning, the solar system containing the planet had a beginning, the galaxy containing the solar system had a beginning, and the universe also had a beginning.  That thing or force or god or whatever you want to call it, is that beginning.  The prime mover.  That which need not be created, that existed prior to all else, that is what I refer to as God.  Seems like a pretty solid logical proof to me.

Sounds illogical to moe. If everything has a beginning, then there cannot be such a thing a "That which need not be created," since such a thing would be something that doesn't need a beginning, and so its very existence would contradict the claim that everything had a beginning.
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Richard Garner

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2009, 12:26:17 PM »

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Fine. And... how does the existence of our universe prove that there is a God?
The fact that it exists at all is evidence that there is a prime mover, a first creator, God.  Doesn't prove theistic beliefs though, but it does prove that something created it it. 

The fact that it doesn't exists doesn't prove that anything created it. Unless you are saying that anything that exists must have been created. But that would imply that if God exists, or a "first mover" a "first creator," that must also have been created.
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mikehz

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Re: Religion = Horseshit
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2009, 04:24:53 PM »

The argument from creation is another very old one, and has also been discredited countless times. If EVERYTHING needs a beginning then postulating a god solves nothing, since you only move the question of origins back by one step. Did another god make god? And, another before that one?

It does no good to say "Well, God is an exception." In that case, one might just as well cut out the extra step and make the exception the universe instead of God.

In fact, we have no reason for supposing that any "beginning" is needed. Beginnings and endings are only required for temporal things. A rock has no beginning as such. It is composed of molecules and atoms which have had their order rearranged countless times. Go back far enough, and the atoms themselves arose from supernovas in ancient stars. The universe itself probably arose from the Big Bang (at least, according to the best current evidence; other natural theories are possible). And before that? Perhaps an endless series of cyclic universes. Or, maybe some other phenomena for which we have no current evidence. But, there is simply no need (and certainly no evidence) for postulating magical beings.
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