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Author Topic: Oppinion: spanking children  (Read 30491 times)

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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #135 on: October 23, 2009, 02:29:05 PM »

How can a sane person initiate force and tell a kid to stop doing something?
Do time outs and/or taking a child's property away count as the initiation of force?

Dude enough with the childs property bullshit.

Does your child own his room? Can he rent it out to backpackers if he wants? Can he sell his room when he leaves home?

You don't gift kids part of your own house, and most reasonable parents dont unconditionally gift most other things, its an implicit assumption that they're things parents have bought and are allowing kids to use. If you insist on being a pedant about it, heres what you do. Don't give your kids anything, lend them things, that way it isn't their property your confiscating, its yours.

Whatever. My kids get gifts. Relatives give them money and they buy things with that money. That stuff is their property. And you know what, I am ok with restricting them from using that property.


Quote
Time outs don't count as initiation of force if they're based on your property
What if you are out in public, and it has nothing to do with your property?
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #136 on: October 23, 2009, 02:59:23 PM »

Jesus Christ!

Spanking your kids hurts them! It sends a very real strong message of PAIN! You are teaching them violence as a problem solving technique. You are demonstrating to them how to solve problems by instigating force.

How about using some patience, creativity, intellect, imagination, and love. What would you be demonstrating then?
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BonerJoe

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #137 on: October 23, 2009, 03:03:16 PM »

You are demonstrating to them how to solve problems by instigating force.

LOL.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #138 on: October 23, 2009, 03:10:38 PM »

Quote
Time outs don't count as initiation of force if they're based on your property
What if you are out in public, and it has nothing to do with your property?


I don't see how it would be possible bar locking them in a car.

I'm not a great fan of time outs or confiscations, but i do think they're a better alternative to spanking.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 03:12:36 PM by fatcat »
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #139 on: October 23, 2009, 03:16:07 PM »

Spanking your kids hurts them! It sends a very real strong message of PAIN! You are teaching them violence as a problem solving technique. You are demonstrating to them how to solve problems by instigating force.
Then taking their property way must be teaching them stealing as a problem solving technique. And time outs must teach them how to solve problems by restricting other peoples freedom.
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #140 on: October 23, 2009, 03:22:17 PM »

Quote
Time outs don't count as initiation of force if they're based on your property
What if you are out in public, and it has nothing to do with your property?


I don't see how it would be possible bar locking them in a car.
You  and some kids are playing at the park, one kid does something bad, that kid gets punished with a timeout on a bench.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #141 on: October 23, 2009, 03:56:55 PM »

Quote

I don't see how it would be possible bar locking them in a car.

I'm not a great fan of time outs or confiscations, but i do think they're a better alternative to spanking.

You're not a fan??? You don't have any fucking kids!
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #142 on: October 23, 2009, 05:31:49 PM »

Spanking your kids hurts them! It sends a very real strong message of PAIN! You are teaching them violence as a problem solving technique. You are demonstrating to them how to solve problems by instigating force.
Then taking their property way must be teaching them stealing as a problem solving technique. And time outs must teach them how to solve problems by restricting other peoples freedom.

The difference here is that spanking is unnecessary violence. You might argue that taking away an object is unnecessary, but is, at least, not an actual attack. Spanking creates a real fear of violence, as opposed to restrictions, which creates fear of inconvenience.

Are you taking the position that spanking is precisely equal in harm to restrictions, or are you just testing my argumentative process?
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BonerJoe

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #143 on: October 23, 2009, 05:39:15 PM »

Quote

I don't see how it would be possible bar locking them in a car.

I'm not a great fan of time outs or confiscations, but i do think they're a better alternative to spanking.

You're not a fan??? You don't have any fucking kids!

He couldn't have kids, he'd disappear in a puff of logic.
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BonerJoe

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #144 on: October 23, 2009, 05:40:16 PM »

The difference here is that spanking is unnecessary violence. You might argue that taking away an object is unnecessary, but is, at least, not an actual attack. Spanking creates a real fear of violence, as opposed to restrictions, which creates fear of inconvenience.

Forcing a screaming and uncooperative kid to go to time out is violence.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #145 on: October 23, 2009, 05:42:07 PM »

Forcing a screaming and uncooperative kid to go to time out is violence.

Sure. And closing the gate so your toddler doesn't run out into the street is imprisonment.
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"If you're giving up your freedom to have freedom you don't have freedom, dummy."              - Mark Edge (10/11/08 show)

BonerJoe

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #146 on: October 23, 2009, 05:54:47 PM »

Forcing a screaming and uncooperative kid to go to time out is violence.

Sure. And closing the gate so your toddler doesn't run out into the street is imprisonment.

Now you're getting it.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #147 on: October 23, 2009, 06:43:03 PM »

Quote

I don't see how it would be possible bar locking them in a car.

I'm not a great fan of time outs or confiscations, but i do think they're a better alternative to spanking.

You're not a fan??? You don't have any fucking kids!

Yeah and I've never been raped or robbed, I guess I shouldn't have an opinion on those things either.

Be sure to throw that argument into any discussion where someone doesn't have 1st hand experience of the subject matter.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 06:49:25 PM by fatcat »
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #148 on: October 23, 2009, 08:54:43 PM »

Are you taking the position that spanking is precisely equal in harm to restrictions
No. I think it would be hard to make a meaningful comparison between the two things, and maybe no harm is involved.

There are different levels of spanking, just like there are with restrictions.

At the lowest level, spanking doesn't even cause pain. I'm not sure what the point is, but it exists. At the other end of the spectrum it becomes abuse. The same thing can happen with restrictions.

That said, I have restricted my kids from thing like video games, but I haven't spanked them.

It seems like there can be initiation of force in many different kinds of punishment, not just spanking.
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LordMarius

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #149 on: October 25, 2009, 04:02:56 AM »

I have this to say on spanking:

The ones who never spank are either saints, or they don't have children.




Or, they are just not psychos who use violence against their kids.
Do you consider giving shots and drawing blood from a kid as violence?

I'm pretty sure sticking sharp metal objects into a person is considered initiation of force.


Please tell me you didn't just equate providing medical treatment and hitting children!
Hitting children! I guess it's more fun than trying to be violent against someone who can actually defend themselves. Is this something one can talk about openly in the US? "Hey, I just kicked my kids ass, I'm such a great fucking parent with my medieval parenting techniques  based on using violence against my own kids".

« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 04:16:56 AM by LordMarius »
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