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Author Topic: Oppinion: spanking children  (Read 32310 times)

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sinceredagreat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2009, 02:24:45 PM »

Examples of when spanking is a good idea:

When you see your 4 year old beating up on a 2 year old, you hit them, they say "did you enjoy that?" and of couse they say no, then say "well don't do it to anyone else then"...

Non-lifeboat situation solved.

And to say getting peopleto behave through fear of physical assault is how a LOT of societal order is based upon.
We all have that fear. And it keeps 99.9999999% of us in line within our social construct.

Go find the biggest black guy you know and call him a "nigger" since you don't believe physical violence doesn't work as a good control of your actions.

Better yet, go find a biker bar and call everyone in there a bitch. You won't because you know the result is an ass-kicking.

So if kids know that I probably shouldn't do something due to a (timeout, spanking, loss of privileges, etc.) punishment, if they all lead to the same response, what's the difference?
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #106 on: October 16, 2009, 02:46:23 PM »

*shaking head*
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sinceredagreat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #107 on: October 16, 2009, 02:49:14 PM »

*shaking head*


I honestly wan your opinion Tuttle. You are one of the people who I genuinely care about what they say and whose opinion I value.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #108 on: October 16, 2009, 03:20:41 PM »

And to say getting people to behave through fear of physical assault is how a LOT of societal order is based upon.
We all have that fear. And it keeps 99.9999999% of us in line within our social construct.

If the only reason you aren't out murdering and stealing from people is because you're scared of going to jail, I wouldn't want anything to do with you.

The kind of people who live like that, are the exact same assholes who go looting and raping any time there's natural disasters and they think they can get away with it. The exact same people violence would be justified against.

What kind of lesson are you teaching your kids by showing them the only reason you shouldn't hurt other people is out of fear for yourself?

I never claimed that fear of violence won't effect kids behavior, its just a shit way to parent, and its power breaks down anytime that fear is absent, i.e. any time you aren't around to administer violence, or any time the kid isn't thinking about getting hit.

 there is volumes of evidence to show if you act like that to kids they will be more aggressive, more likely to be criminal and have a greater chance of mental health issues. Generally though these directly correlate with the frequency of spanking, so that parents who spank very infrequently probably have negligible impact. Which then raises the question of whether those instances are actually necessary.

This doesn't mean any parent who spanks is only teaching their kids to behave out of fear. The important child rearing is happening between spanks, not during. Any kid who turns out to be a half way decent person does so because of maturation and understanding, not because they've simply been discplined enough times, via spanking or other methods (except other methods can involve communication and help develop understanding way better than hitting).

If the only way you can get a fucking 4 year old to stop hitting another kid is by hitting them you are running dangerously low on thoughts.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 06:17:10 PM by fatcat »
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #109 on: October 16, 2009, 03:49:37 PM »

Yessir,

Sorry, I found the whole "walking into a bar full of bikers" to be a bit much. But I don't entirely disagree. A healthy fear of violence is necessary. A person without fear would be daft. A person exhibiting the behaviors you suggest has serious issues. If a grown man is running around doing that, maybe he was hit in the head too many times as a child.

The situation you gave with the 4-year-old and 2-year-old was a great example of one in which I would not think ill of someone for using spanking.  I believe it conveys the right message and it is not soon forgotten.

I choose different methods. I would talk with both children and understand the cause of the fight. I would explain to the older child that he is bigger and should not hurt younger children. I would make the older child apologize and make amends for the offense. I would explain why physical violence is only appropriate against "very bad people who want to hurt others" and that we a-are not those kind of people. I would then issue a punishment appropriate to make the message clear that this was not acceptable behavior. I would also make sure that if the 2-year-old did something to provoke the behavior that there would be some form of punishment that fits that offense. The goal when I'm done is to have full acceptance of responsibility of the offense and - eventually - agreement that the punishment was appropriate. Sure, I understand that this can be time consuming. If I had two children then I don't know how I would be able to keep up with them. I'm concerned strongly about character and about respect for other human beings. I believe that self-respect and respect for others go hand-in-hand. I want my child (future adult) to really think about what that other person is going through. Knowing that other humans will fight back is definitely a good part of it.

I seek to be a strong example of principles to my child and do not wish the taint of emotion in my punishment. I want my child to know that I'll be fair. I want my child to have self-confidence, and self-respect and to have respect for others that is built on valuing individual humans.

I also at this time want to point out that my child DOES need to consider my emotions - because considering other people's feelings is important. However, I make it clear that justice in the Tuttle home is completely independent of emotion. Any offense against Daddy is punished the same regardless of how Daddy feels. For example, if they jump up onto my lap and the knee hits my groin by mistake, they get a punishment appropriate to jumping on someone's lap with the knee sticking out. I find that knowing they inadvertently caused pain with their poor judgment is punishment enough.
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PDeverit

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #110 on: October 16, 2009, 03:54:57 PM »

Child buttock-battering vs. DISCIPLINE:

Child buttock-battering for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.

Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.

I think the reason why television shows like "Supernanny" and "Dr. Phil" are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do.

There are several reasons why child bottom-slapping isn't a good idea. Here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak,

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson,

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor M.D. and Adah Maurer Ph.D.

Most compelling of all reasons to abandon this worst of all bad habits is the fact that buttock-battering can be unintentional sexual abuse for some children. There is an abundance of educational resources, testimony, documentation, etc available on the subject that can easily be found by doing a little research with the recommended reads-visit www.nospank.net.

Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child bottom-slapping isn't a good idea:

American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
Center For Effective Discipline,
PsycHealth Ltd Behavioral Health Professionals,
Churches' Network For Non-Violence,
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

In 26 countries, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
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anarchir

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2009, 04:20:36 PM »

Spanking seems to be an extreme form of control of a child, and the benefits may easily be squashed by the problems it causes.

The fact is, a good parent should research and find better ways of taking care of their children.
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sinceredagreat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2009, 06:51:17 PM »

So someone says that spanking turns people into sexual deviants????

Fucking wow.
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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2009, 08:45:55 PM »

So someone says that spanking turns people into sexual deviants????

Fucking wow.
Fuckin namby pambies right?
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2009, 09:32:32 PM »

I linked to a Metastudy that covered 88 studies over a 62 year period, that shows at best Spanking is provides no significant benefit over other discipline, and at worst can be extremely damaging.

Thats hard fact. Deal with it.
Meta-Analysis doesn't "prove" anything. It's not hard fact.

From the study:
http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1284539.pdf
Quote
Despite the inability of meta-analyses to yield definitive causal
conclusions (Cooper & Hedges, 1994), they do constitute an
effective means of establishing whether the associations of interest
are present and thus pave the way for further research into causal
mechanisms. To underscore the inability of meta-analyses to support
causal conclusions, I refer to child “behaviors and experiences”
or “constructs” associated with parental corporal punishment
rather than to child “outcomes” in the context of the
meta-analyses.


Quote
If you can find a flaw in the methodology that you think invalidates the study, let me hear it,
The flaw is in your interpretation, not the study.

From your link:
http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html
Quote
"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."

Quote
if you can find a more comprehensive study that shows spanking is beneficial overall, bring that out, if not just accept your pro-spanking position comes from nothing but anecdote, personal preference, inherited tradition, and possibly lazyness/emotion.
What is wrong with personal preference?

Should parents be using your personal preference?

FYI, I have never spanked my kids(I asked them), but I am not against it. I think corporal punishment can be used appropriately.
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2009, 09:54:58 PM »

Hitting kids is a great way to teach them that violence is the best way to solve problems when you're too impatient to use reason.
How do you feel about time outs?

http://www.corpun.com/benatar.htm
Quote
First, there is a reductio ad absurdum. The argument about the message implicit in violence seems to prove too much. If we suggest that hitting a wrongdoer imparts the message that violence is a fitting means to resolve conflict, then surely we should be committed to saying that detaining a child or imprisoning a convict conveys the message that restricting liberty is an appropriate manner to deal with people who displease one. We would also be required to concede that fining people conveys the message that forcing others to give up some of their property is an acceptable way to respond to those who act in a way that one does not like. If beatings send a message, why don't detentions, imprisonments, fines, and a multitude of other punishments convey equally undesirable messages? The argument proves too much because it proves that all punishment conveys inappropriate messages and so is wrong. It is a reductio because this conclusion is absurd. Those who want to replace punishment with therapy would not be immune to the reductio either. Providing therapy would convey the message that people with whom one disagrees are to be viewed as sick and deserving of treatment.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #116 on: October 16, 2009, 10:08:28 PM »

I linked to a Metastudy that covered 88 studies over a 62 year period, that shows at best Spanking is provides no significant benefit over other discipline, and at worst can be extremely damaging.

Thats hard fact. Deal with it.
Meta-Analysis doesn't "prove" anything. It's not hard fact.

From the study:
http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1284539.pdf
Quote
Despite the inability of meta-analyses to yield definitive causal
conclusions (Cooper & Hedges, 1994), they do constitute an
effective means of establishing whether the associations of interest
are present and thus pave the way for further research into causal
mechanisms. To underscore the inability of meta-analyses to support
causal conclusions, I refer to child “behaviors and experiences”
or “constructs” associated with parental corporal punishment
rather than to child “outcomes” in the context of the
meta-analyses.


Quote
If you can find a flaw in the methodology that you think invalidates the study, let me hear it,
The flaw is in your interpretation, not the study.

From your link:
http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html
Quote
"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."

Quote
if you can find a more comprehensive study that shows spanking is beneficial overall, bring that out, if not just accept your pro-spanking position comes from nothing but anecdote, personal preference, inherited tradition, and possibly lazyness/emotion.
What is wrong with personal preference?

Should parents be using your personal preference?

FYI, I have never spanked my kids(I asked them), but I am not against it. I think corporal punishment can be used appropriately.

As to whether theres anything wrong with personal preference. The answer being it depends. Obviously I don't agree with the preference for hitting kids under any pretext. However when all of the arguments seem to be from necessity, then preference becomes an undesirable factor. I.e. if people are going to claim they HAVE to hit kids, they should be proving it and not just preferring it.

I already covered that potential weakness in the metastudy. I already accepted that the (meta)study doesn't show that all spanking is harmful, and in fact most of the studies rely on correlation, which might.

Don't get me wrong, most of the major problems with spanking comes from its use in excess, the study doesn't show that any level of spanking is harmful, its not intended to.

What it does show is that spanking doesn't provide any significant benefit, and generally mild spanking of your kid is not any more beneficial than no spanking, and excessive spanking is a hell of alot more damaging than no spanking.

My posit was this.

Of all the disciplinary techniques I know of, spanking is statistically the most misused to a damaging level, thus poses the greatest risk for abuse. Also I don't believe theres any evidence to show that kids who aren't spanked have any significant greater risk of being injured (covers - THEY'LL RUN INTO TRAFFIC shit), or of any greater long term behavioral problems (covers - you have to spank your kids to stop them hitting other kids).

The meta-study does not make specific addresses about mild/moderate spanking, because the excessive/abusive cases where included in many of the studies. However this does not mean that mild to moderate spanking does not cause harm or that it doesn't.

At this point I'm perfectly willing to accept that mild/moderate spanking does not cause any significant problems to children, although I have not seen any evidence either way.

However, as I have not seen anyone demonstrate any tangible benefits to spanking versus non spanking, my preference for not hitting kids means I can't see any reason someone would want to do it other than lazyness/unthinkingness and I would hope any parent would have such a preference that they would not hit kids at the very least if it wasn't proven to be beneficial, not just convenient.

If its possible to be a good parent without spanking, why on earth would someone want to do it? I simply don't buy the "some kids don't understand anything but" credos. I've seen nothing in my limited personal experience, and no stastical data to back it up. I think if you've got a child who appears can't be controlled in any other way but hitting, its probably bad parenting that got them there.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2009, 10:16:40 PM »

Hitting kids is a great way to teach them that violence is the best way to solve problems when you're too impatient to use reason.
How do you feel about time outs?

http://www.corpun.com/benatar.htm
Quote
First, there is a reductio ad absurdum. The argument about the message implicit in violence seems to prove too much. If we suggest that hitting a wrongdoer imparts the message that violence is a fitting means to resolve conflict, then surely we should be committed to saying that detaining a child or imprisoning a convict conveys the message that restricting liberty is an appropriate manner to deal with people who displease one. We would also be required to concede that fining people conveys the message that forcing others to give up some of their property is an acceptable way to respond to those who act in a way that one does not like. If beatings send a message, why don't detentions, imprisonments, fines, and a multitude of other punishments convey equally undesirable messages? The argument proves too much because it proves that all punishment conveys inappropriate messages and so is wrong. It is a reductio because this conclusion is absurd. Those who want to replace punishment with therapy would not be immune to the reductio either. Providing therapy would convey the message that people with whom one disagrees are to be viewed as sick and deserving of treatment.

I disagree with you there blackie.

In the right contexts "time outs" are entirely communicative methods of punishment. I.e. if you can't play nice you don't get to play.

Thats very different from, if you do something bad I will cause you pain. I happen to think time outs of the locked in a room variety are entirely fucked up.

There is a fundamental difference between physical pain based disciplines and other disciplines. All can be abused, but pain based discipline is inherently unthinking. One reinforces self interested benefits, the other reinforces fear of pain/obedience to authority.


You can't communicate a message with a hit alone, other than I will hit you if you do something I don't want you to.

Any greater lesson of "its not nice to hit your brother"/"its dangerous to run in traffic" comes with words surrounding the violence, not violence itself. As such its a fundamentally unthinking method of discipline even if you build meaning around it.

Deprivation of benefits is far more communicative than infliction of pain, because it reinforces the role of a parent as a provider, not as a vindictive dictator. It inherently reinforces A) the beneficial role of the parent B) the self interested benefit for the kid to behave even if the parent doesn't explicitly explain either concept.
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sinceredagreat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2009, 02:58:35 AM »

You Say that time outs are better, but not the locked in the room variety? So the watch wveyone else have fun isn't fucked up?

Whether you are in a jail cell with no window and no communication or in a jail cell overlooking a city street able to call out and see people, you're still in jail.

 
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #119 on: October 17, 2009, 10:11:53 AM »

You Say that time outs are better, but not the locked in the room variety? So the watch wveyone else have fun isn't fucked up?

Far less so than physical violence, yes. A parent owns the home the kid lives in, owns the TV, etc etc. If they want to deprive certain benefits it seems far more sensible method of discipline than just hitting. And as I just mentioned, depriving benefits as apposed to inflicting pain reinforces the role of the parent as a benevolent carer, not a ruler.

Young kids can have a hard time distinguishing between their own freedoms and things their parents provide for them, so it seems apt that a disciplinary method would help etch out these boundaries, which hopefully leads to greater understanding and therefore long term benefits to parent/child relationship.

I don't actually know which disciplinary methods I would want to use, as given my limited child minding experience I've not had anything that can't be dealt with by talking and physical restraint.

But I'm pretty sure spanking is never going to be on the cards, for all the reasons I've mentioned in this thread.
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