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Author Topic: Oppinion: spanking children  (Read 32260 times)

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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2009, 09:35:07 AM »

the only time I'll beat a kid is if he's some sort of pituitary gland tumor giant freak and the only way I can stop them from beating me/another person is by knocking them unconscious.
Why does size matter?

Well its the only way I can forsee me needing to use violence in self defense with a child is with some sort of biological abboration., maybe there are some average 6 year olds who can actually kick my ass sans pituitary gigantism, I don't really know.
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2009, 01:31:44 PM »

the only time I'll beat a kid is if he's some sort of pituitary gland tumor giant freak and the only way I can stop them from beating me/another person is by knocking them unconscious.
Why does size matter?

Well its the only way I can forsee me needing to use violence in self defense with a child is with some sort of biological abboration., maybe there are some average 6 year olds who can actually kick my ass sans pituitary gigantism, I don't really know.
Do you think it is wrong to use violence in self defense against a midget?
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Andy

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2009, 02:14:06 PM »

the only time I'll beat a kid is if he's some sort of pituitary gland tumor giant freak and the only way I can stop them from beating me/another person is by knocking them unconscious.
Why does size matter?

Well its the only way I can forsee me needing to use violence in self defense with a child is with some sort of biological abboration., maybe there are some average 6 year olds who can actually kick my ass sans pituitary gigantism, I don't really know.
Do you think it is wrong to use violence in self defense against a midget?

Who cares, midgets have no souls.

galets

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2009, 03:10:16 PM »

If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

See, I'm not suggesting that spanking is a good method to raise a child; what I am saying is that it is a _valid_ method. The brain of most highly-developed animals establishes a natural link between otherwise unlinked events when they happen in short sequence, and if the second event is shocking enough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(NLP)). This works, for example, when you grab hot iron - it will for a long time get associated with pain and you would exercise caution when a hot iron is next to you. Spanking (same as angry yelling, by the way) when kid does something utterly destructive is a method to associate that behavior with unpleasant consequence. So, to address your question, oftentimes you only need to do it once, but is it _so_ effective? Sometimes, everybody is different.

I was never suggesting that spanking cannot be replaced with something else. If you have unlimited time and want to spend it on a kid alone - chances are you don't ever have to spank or yell. If you have money to buy safe equipment, get house in gated neighborhood, have areas to go with your child which are completely safe - you are good. No spanking needed. But not every parent has it. Some will work 10 hours and barely make ends meet to live in a crummy apartment in bad neighborhood, where every teenager is a gansta wannabe. You don't want your kid to learn hard way what it means - to runaway from a playground in that area.

Quote
Yeah you're right I don't have kids, I hope that isn't some disbarment to the discussion of how kids should be raised, just like not being black shouldn't be a disbarment to talking about racism towards blacks.

It kind of is... Your heart is i the right place, but there are things that kids do, which are very hard to mentally create without prior experience. They do things you can almost never expect from adult. In many ways, children are playing power games, they will constantly push the envelope. My 4 year old daughter, would demand something (watch cartoons for example), and if not given, she will stand next to you and yell very loud for half an hour, and in her age they yell really unpleasant, you cannot work, talk on the phone, it's very-very disruptive. And I believe she is very well aware how unpleasant it is for everyone else to listen to it, she just uses it as a means to get cartoon. Also, she will not sit in a timeout chair, neither stay in her room, nor she will listen to anything you try to tell her, she will walk back stand next to you and resume yelling. This is a scenario, where we have a locking room, and that saves her some swats, but what if we didn't? There are families living in 1-bedroom apartments, what you gonna do then?

If you let kids exploit your weaknesses, they will keep doing it. Children don't owe parents, I agree with that, but neither do parents owe their children anything. When such situation happens, someone must give up, by why does it have to be parent? If parent is willing to spend time and resources to sort this situation in a peaceful manner, good for him. Does he have an obligation to do so? Like Ian says, demonstrate me how was this obligation created. In example above, there is most probably some mistake on our part in bringing her up, we probably could have done something different and she would not give us such hell with her behavior. But we are not professionals, nobody is, yet children are happening

Can conflicts be handled in a calm, patient manner? Sure it can, but not every person has that much patience and/or skill. It would be a better world if only people who are really fit to be parents would be having children, but it isn't.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 03:19:36 PM by galets »
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davann

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2009, 04:01:20 PM »

If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

Seems like alot of people here have bullshitted themselves into believing its some sort of miricale tool that you simply can't raise kids without.

Also the "saints" comment seems to suggest its more about the parents desire to hit the kids when they act out, not of it actually being a useful tool.


I was spanked once and only once. I had to spank my step son once and only once.

I have the solution to this issue. Why doesn't everyone just mind thier own fucking business. Christ on a cracker, the anti-spanking crowd sounds so much like all the other nanny staters. You raise your kids they way you want and I'll keep my opinions to myself and I'll raise my kids the way I want and you'll keep your opinions to yourself. Sound fair?
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2009, 04:14:48 PM »

You feel the need to inform parents that children are not animals?  Really?  I have the utmost respect for your parenting methods, but do you have to be so condescending? 
I don't mean to sound "condescending", but for the purpose of this debate I wanted to characterize spanking of children in strong terms

Quote
Children may not be animals, but neither do they have the reasoning capacity of adults.  Reasonable people do not throw themselves on the floor and scream when they don't get a cookie. 

A parent should be trying to teach reasoning skills to their child. This takes patience, persistance, and consistency. It is important to also remember that that children learn much by example.

Quote
I don't think most people spank to "educate" their children.  They do it to stop the child from hurting him or herself or others. Is it inconsistent to spank a kid because he threw a toaster at his brother's head?  No, no more than it is to fine someone for stealing. 

What you are describing is a punishment, given after the fact, to educate the child that there are consequences to those actions. I agree with you that punishments are valuable. I also agree that the punishment should fit the offense. I would consider this to be "education" in a sense.

What if the reason the kid threw a toaster at his brother's head was as a retaliation to some perceived wrong? Can you see a cycle progressing? My child has hit both parents and one grandparent. It might have been appropriate to respond with a spanking, I just found that I was able to adequately punish the offense without hitting, and was able to firmly establish an example to my child of creative problem solving. I would also like to add, that in my home, punishments are always linked to wrongs committed and separated from everything else. We can apply a punishment (such as taking away toy X for a week), then discuss the problem, hug, and move on. Since the punishment has been dealt, we can move on to any other event or activity and leave anger and hurt feelings behind. Further, since there is no threat of physical pain, it is always easy to get my child to admit to wrongdoing and discuss what ideas led to it. My child definitely seems to feel my anger as much as I feared my father's, but I feel that there is a difference in the closeness of our relationship. I attribute this to the fact that I always get to be seen as a protector and defender, and never somebody who will cause pain.

The real dangers from using spanking as a punishment, as I see them are:

1) Reducing the credibility of your position that violence is bad
2) It is difficult to measure the actual effect of the amount of force you are applying
3) The risk that you will be allowing too much of your own emotion into the punishment, especially when angry

I still agree that there may be times where spanking could be appropriate. I wouldn't despise another parent for doing it - unless I deemed it for crossing a certain line that I wouldn't be able to quantify here.

Christ on a cracker, the anti-spanking crowd sounds so much like all the other nanny staters. You raise your kids they way you want and I'll keep my opinions to myself and I'll raise my kids the way I want and you'll keep your opinions to yourself. Sound fair?

Because this is a forum where people discuss opinions. Who knows, maybe we'll ALL learn something. I think most of the anti-spankers here have already stated that they wish to see no laws governing this.
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Rillion

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2009, 04:36:23 PM »

Yeah you're right I don't have kids, I hope that isn't some disbarment to the discussion of how kids should be raised, just like not being black shouldn't be a disbarment to talking about racism towards blacks.

It kind of is... Your heart is i the right place, but there are things that kids do, which are very hard to mentally create without prior experience.

Then all of us without kids-- tolerant or intolerant of spanking-- had better step out.  However, I do think it should be noted that there are parents and non-parents on both sides of the issue. 
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2009, 04:44:04 PM »

Quote
Christ on a cracker, the anti-spanking crowd sounds so much like all the other nanny staters. You raise your kids they way you want and I'll keep my opinions to myself and I'll raise my kids the way I want and you'll keep your opinions to yourself. Sound fair?

Because this is a forum where people discuss opinions. Who knows, maybe we'll ALL learn something. I think most of the anti-spankers here have already stated that they wish to see no laws governing this.

I'm glad people as smart as Tuttle are in this discussion.

No one here is advocating jailing parents who spank their kids. I don't see how talking about how best to raise kids is any more nanny state than a conversation on healthy eating.

I thought most libertarians understood, just because you think people should be free to do whatever they want, doesn't mean you don't think there are better ways to live life than others.

If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

See, I'm not suggesting that spanking is a good method to raise a child; what I am saying is that it is a _valid_ method.

I'm the only one who has posted stats in this thread.

If not-spanking kids leads to negative effects on their development, prove it. If it causes them to get into accidents that spanked kids wouldn't, prove it.

All I've heard is anecdotal bullshit on how "you don't know what kids are like".

Anecdotes don't mean shit. I was never hit as a kid. Tuttle doesn't hit his kids.

In fact even if I saw stats saying spanking made your kids safer, I'd still prefer not to do it, for the reasons Tuttle elaborated on, e.g. the message it sends to your kids and the hypocrisy, and the general distastefulness of using violence as an education tool, not as a shield which I believe is its only moral usage outside of consensual S&M/cagefighting type deals.

At least though if stats where provided, it would give some credence to all the righteous indignation pro-spankers are pumping out when anyone questions whether spanking is actually something beneficial or necessary for child rearing.
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davann

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2009, 05:05:22 PM »

Quote
Christ on a cracker, the anti-spanking crowd sounds so much like all the other nanny staters. You raise your kids they way you want and I'll keep my opinions to myself and I'll raise my kids the way I want and you'll keep your opinions to yourself. Sound fair?

Because this is a forum where people discuss opinions. Who knows, maybe we'll ALL learn something. I think most of the anti-spankers here have already stated that they wish to see no laws governing this.

I'm glad people as smart as Tuttle are in this discussion.

No one here is advocating jailing parents who spank their kids. I don't see how talking about how best to raise kids is any more nanny state than a conversation on healthy eating.

I thought most libertarians understood, just because you think people should be free to do whatever they want, doesn't mean you don't think there are better ways to live life than others.


I never said anyone was suggesting to jail parents for spanking. I said everyone should mind their own business.

The way a parent raises a child is as personal as someone deciding to have an abortion. It really is no one elses business. Talk all you want about your opinions but be aware they come across as egotistical.

Broadcasting your non child having opinion on spanking to a large number of parents is about as acceptable as a woman you are attempting to flirt with asking how much you make within the first 3 minutes of conversation.
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galets

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2009, 07:02:01 PM »

I'm the only one who has posted stats in this thread. If not-spanking kids leads to negative effects on their development, prove it. If it causes them to get into accidents that spanked kids wouldn't, prove it. All I've heard is anecdotal bullshit on how "you don't know what kids are like". Anecdotes don't mean shit. I was never hit as a kid. Tuttle doesn't hit his kids.

Dude, you ignored pretty much every point that I made. Why would I be looking for stats? I am not making any points that could be proved or disproved by stats
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 07:04:54 PM by galets »
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2009, 07:26:40 PM »

Yeah you're right I don't have kids, I hope that isn't some disbarment to the discussion of how kids should be raised, just like not being black shouldn't be a disbarment to talking about racism towards blacks.

It kind of is... Your heart is i the right place, but there are things that kids do, which are very hard to mentally create without prior experience.

Then all of us without kids-- tolerant or intolerant of spanking-- had better step out.  However, I do think it should be noted that there are parents and non-parents on both sides of the issue. 

If there is one thing I find intolerable in argumentation it is this appeal to authority demanding direct personal experience. I don't see any reason why someone without kids can't have a valid opinion. In fact, since there are people who abuse their own children to death - as well as parents who tolerate abhorrent behavior from children - I believe it is self-evident that the state of being a parent does not automatically bestow the gift of wise parenting. Further, since each of us has BEEN a child, we should all have SOME opinion on the matter.

After all, I have neither murdered anyone nor been the victim of a murder, but I still have a strong opinion about murder, simply because I am a human and have experienced life.

I want to hear Rillion's opinions, whether they agree with mine or not. At least they have been thought through. The basis for my opinions on parenting were formed before I was actually a parent. The experience has shaped me, but the intellectual underpinnings and careful deliberation were done before the first punishment needed to be issued.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2009, 07:36:50 PM »

Further, since each of us has BEEN a child, we should all have SOME opinion on the matter.

I'll say that when my parents spanked me I deserved it.  It taught me a lesson I needed to learn in each and every case.  I was still a rebel and I still raised hell until a couple of years ago when I realized that my parents and I were not much different and that they only did the things they did when I was young because they loved me and wanted me to grow up to be at least as successful as they are.  It was almost as if I had an epiphany one day.  I guess some people call that reaching maturity.
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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2009, 07:39:25 PM »

If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

Seems like alot of people here have bullshitted themselves into believing its some sort of miricale tool that you simply can't raise kids without.

Also the "saints" comment seems to suggest its more about the parents desire to hit the kids when they act out, not of it actually being a useful tool.


I was spanked once and only once. I had to spank my step son once and only once.

I have the solution to this issue. Why doesn't everyone just mind thier own fucking business. Christ on a cracker, the anti-spanking crowd sounds so much like all the other nanny staters. You raise your kids they way you want and I'll keep my opinions to myself and I'll raise my kids the way I want and you'll keep your opinions to yourself. Sound fair?
I agree completely. Cheers.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2009, 07:43:04 PM »

I guess some people call that reaching maturity.

Agreed.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2009, 08:15:07 PM »

I'm the only one who has posted stats in this thread. If not-spanking kids leads to negative effects on their development, prove it. If it causes them to get into accidents that spanked kids wouldn't, prove it. All I've heard is anecdotal bullshit on how "you don't know what kids are like". Anecdotes don't mean shit. I was never hit as a kid. Tuttle doesn't hit his kids.

Dude, you ignored pretty much every point that I made. Why would I be looking for stats? I am not making any points that could be proved or disproved by stats

Well I wasn't directing my comments directly at your comments. Your argument seems to be along the lines of "its difficult to discipline kids without spanking if you don't have the time or man power". Which is a fair enough argument, but thats not the same thing as it not being possible to raise and discipline kids without spanking, which is what I'm talking about.

My point is people can talk about how they need to spank kids to stop them running into traffic and running with scissors, but unless they actually back up that stuff with stats, its just waffle.

I hope most people know that a personal anecdote is generally poor proof for anything on its own. As I mentioned before, I and other people have been raised perfectly fine without spanking. Does this prove all kids can be raised well without spanking? No. But neither does counter anecdotes.

I am by no means calling any parent who spanks a 'bad person', but I don't think theres anywhere near a strong case saying spanking is 'neccessary' in the discipline of kids. Lots of people seem to be taking the position that they were spanked as a kid, and they turned out fine, so its fine for their kids too.

Is it a quick way to gain immediate compliance? Sure it is. But all the other assertions that have been made about the neccessity of spanking have not been backed by anything but anecdote in this debate.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 08:17:24 PM by fatcat »
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