Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  The Show
| | |-+  Oppinion: spanking children
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12   Go Down

Author Topic: Oppinion: spanking children  (Read 30477 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

galets

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Oppinion: spanking children
« on: October 06, 2009, 11:49:09 PM »

I've been listening to a Saturday's FTL in the car, and I can't help bringing up some points regarding the child-spanking. I am a parent myself, I have 3 children, and let me say it straight I don't condone violence, especially targeted at the little ones. Beating the one who is not only physically incapable to respond, but also dependent on you is bad-bad-bad. But I also heard some points on the show which I really feel like addressing:

Issue #1: Non-aggression

One of the callers brought up non-aggression principle, and that hitting your child is initiation of force. The problem with this statement is that non-initiation of force is not an axiomatic principle, but derived from the principle of self-ownership. Exercising violence on somebody can be equated to a property damage. Since humans value their body very high, hitting someone, even lightly is like damaging a very expensive item. But violation of property rights does not occur every time you spank somebody. You can spank yourself, since body is your property and you can damage it plenty. You can spank your significant other, because significant other owns the body in question and can authorize that. Who owns the child? Obviously, child does only when (s)he reaches capacity to exercise self-ownership. Little children obviously don't have this capacity, so their parents temporarily act on their behalf. So, there could be cases when spanking little child does not breach non-aggression principle.

Issue #2:  IQ

I very rarely side with Mark, but this time he made a good point: difference in IQ between spanked and non-spanked kids does not establish causal link. It seems to me that it is very likely that children with lower capacity to understand others are getting themselves into situations where spanking is likely solution. Smart kids are likely to avoid those situations, so IQ difference simply reflects the fact that smart kids were smarter all along

Issue #3: Patience

One of callers mentioned that she believes that it is possibler to bring up a child with no spanking, but she simply does not have appropriate time, patience and resources to do this. I think this was the key. Everything is possible when you have infinite resources, time and skills. But not all of us are professional pedagogues, and/or own a fortune to be able to hire one. A lot of parents don't have time, a lot of them don't have skills. Some are lucky to have kids which could be brought without too much trouble, but other kids are not as easy. Being single mother with two boys of approximately same age is a whole different thing, than both parents with enough income, and with more evenly aged kids of alternating sex (I'm assuming she probably is not very well off financially, but of course I might be wrong).

Issue #4: Parenthood and individual liberty

Libertarians always talk a good talk about individual freedom, but somehow, when it comes to parenthood, liberty is forgotten. It is important to recognize that one human being cannot be made a serf to another one, simply because (s)he became a parent. While it's obviously a good idea to make sure you have skills and resources available for your children, it is not always happening. Children are people too. People should probably not look at their kids like they are saints, and expect the others parents to do same thing. It's where the liberty begins to end

Logged

BobRobertson

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 929
    • View Profile
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 12:39:51 AM »

I have this to say on spanking:

The ones who never spank are either saints, or they don't have children.

I agree it's a bad thing. When (listening to the podcast) someone said "When I've seen it done in public...", well in public is the last place to do it! I cannot imagine spanking "in public" unless it was an act so awful that no witness to the spanking would have any doubt. But removing the child from a public place is far and away the most appropriate thing to do. There's the "lifestyle choices" that Mark was talking about.

I also agree that it gets the child's attention. It cuts through the fog of running around, being tired, whatever is going on that is causing the problem in the first place and brings the attention of the child instantly to the here and now. That's the only reason I'll spank, because beating someone as a punishment is pointless. It doesn't teach anything.

And again I agree that it is not something all children need, or respond to, children are just as much individuals as adults are.

Some children are verbal learners, some physical. That's just reality.

I hereby nominate that guy's parents, who had the eternal patience to explain the results of what he was doing wrong to him, over and over and over for year after year after year, for saint-hood.

They deserve it.

More times than I want to remember I've been pushed by my kids to the point of asking, "Did I yell the FIRST time I told you to stop? (they answer "no...") Did I yell the SECOND time I told you to stop? (same answer) Did I yell the THIRD time? (ditto, which shows me they actually were listening) No. Now I'm yelling, and I won't yell again. I hate yelling. Get in the corner. (translation: timeout)"

Saints. Really.
Logged
"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

libertylover

  • No Title Needed
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 04:12:01 AM »

I have this to say on spanking:

The ones who never spank are either saints, or they don't have children.


This. 

My parents had a counting rule they would tell you what you were doing was wrong.  Then they started counting and you didn't stop the behavior by the time they reached 10 depending on the problem.  Sometime negotiations would be allowed.  And there was a spanking age range not before the child understood no and up until the age of 12 when grounding and rewards became more effective.
Logged

Laetitia

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3952
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 07:52:42 AM »

My children are now all old enough to understand reasonable discussions and loss of perks as punishments (video games are great for this), but there was a window between toddler and about seven where dangerous behavior was punished by spanking.
I hated doing it, but a swat on the behind was far safer than allowing a four year old to run around a busy parking lot throwing a tantrum.

Other than when there was an immediate need to shut down a behavior like the one I just mentioned, spanking was reserved for a response to willfully destructive behavior - physical harm to others, violent/aggressive destruction of property. There's a distinction between normal kid destructiveness - things broken carelessly or crayons on the walls - and intending to harm others by smashing their stuff. Anything that falls in the first category can be handled by restitution (clean up or replacing from kids' own piggy bank) and an apology, but I think I'd have been wrong to go that route with actions that would be considered felonies in an adult.
Logged
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 09:00:25 AM »

If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

Seems like alot of people here have bullshitted themselves into believing its some sort of miricale tool that you simply can't raise kids without.

Also the "saints" comment seems to suggest its more about the parents desire to hit the kids when they act out, not of it actually being a useful tool.

Again, if spanking was actually effective, and not just something that feels like it works, you wouldn't need to do it more than a couple of times before the threat of spanking was enough.

Me and my brother were never slapped as children, neither were my cousins, and of the friends i know who's parents didn't hit them, non of them had any more wild upbringing than my friends who were hit.

It seems to me people who have unruly kids who resort to spanking, doesn't make them any less unruly. You might be able to get a token apology and get them to shut up for a minute from threat of violence (whoop de do), but it certainly isn't going to affect a long term change.

Only natural developments in maturity is going to do that, and as far as my experience goes, that happens with talking and understanding in spite of hitting, not because.

There are clearly examples of parents dealing with unruly children without spanking, so this idea that spanking is the normal solution just seems lazy. I have absolutely no idea where this idea comes from that it takes less time and resources to raise a kid by spanking. You can use physical force without resorting to hitting.

Also it seems to be more popular in the US than it is in the UK, so I think its pretty lazy thinking to accept it as sound parenting just because its the norm.
Logged

blackie

  • Guest
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 10:39:18 AM »

Most spanking is probably less harmful to kids than name calling and yelling at them.
Logged

Alex Libman 15

  • Guest
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 11:10:38 AM »

Nice post, galets.

I have written about the importance of parents rights elsewhere.  I don't consider NAP or even self-ownership to be axioms in of themselves, but consequences of the single axiom I call "evolutionary pragmatism" - the societal ruleset that produces the greatest materialistic competitive advantage is the one most desirable (aka "natural law").  It is very obvious when you look at the data that societies that fail to properly recognize the rights of the parents over their children inevitably experience demographic collapse.  Parents must be motivated to reproduce, otherwise they simply won't, and no one in their right mind wants to spend that much time, money, and energy raising an undisciplined little snitch for the state!
Logged

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

  • A Cut Above The Rest
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8299
  • If government is the answer, the question is stupi
    • View Profile
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 11:31:16 AM »

My children are now all old enough to understand reasonable discussions and loss of perks as punishments (video games are great for this), but there was a window between toddler and about seven where dangerous behavior was punished by spanking.
I hated doing it, but a swat on the behind was far safer than allowing a four year old to run around a busy parking lot throwing a tantrum.

Other than when there was an immediate need to shut down a behavior like the one I just mentioned, spanking was reserved for a response to willfully destructive behavior - physical harm to others, violent/aggressive destruction of property. There's a distinction between normal kid destructiveness - things broken carelessly or crayons on the walls - and intending to harm others by smashing their stuff. Anything that falls in the first category can be handled by restitution (clean up or replacing from kids' own piggy bank) and an apology, but I think I'd have been wrong to go that route with actions that would be considered felonies in an adult.
Sounds like you're doing it the right way.
Logged
"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Rillion

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6804
    • View Profile
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 12:16:27 PM »

If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

I guess you're right.  If a punishment is effective, then you should only have to do it once, never punishing your kids again.   :roll:

Umm, what?
Logged

Alex Libman 15

  • Guest
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 12:27:11 PM »

Cellular shock collars with fallback GPS.  :lol:

Logged

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 12:43:35 PM »

If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

I guess you're right.  If a punishment is effective, then you should only have to do it once, never punishing your kids again.   :roll:

Umm, what?

Surely the purpose of punishment is to stop someone doing something again. Isn't the definition of effective "Having an intended or expected effect"?

Or maybe parents should hit kids cause it makes them feel better, not cause its actually gonna change their behavior.

If someone is put in jail for murder, and they murder again when they get released, was the punishment effective?

I never claimed any punishment was 100% effective, I just think since spanking clearly isn't a wonder cure, and that a child should behave because it understands why its a good idea, not because its afraid of getting hit, then it seems vulgar and lazy to hit kids when you could just as easily use non violent punishment.

I haven't seen any evidence that spanking results in any more well rounded children than not spanking, and of my limited knowledge in the field, it seems most people who go to get help with misbehaving kids don't get told "hit them more", but do get told use more thought out ways of discipline.

If I could be arsed doing the research I'm pretty sure there's data on how spanking isn't really effective compared to other techniques. Here's a 62 year spanning 88 study meta-study that shows pretty much the only thing corporal punishment is good for is immediate compliance, and has strong associations with 10 negative factors including aggression, mental health issues and crime.

I'm pretty sure there aren't comparative studies that show not spanking has such negative effects. The study includes extreme cases of corporal punishment, so it may not be indicative of mild corporal punishment as a whole, but with a lack of supporting evidence in favor of corporal punishment, the only real argument for it is lazyness and a desire to hit kids.

All I've seen on the pro side of spanking is that its "normal", and worrying terminology that somehow not spanking kids would require extra effort and patience.

If you're hitting a kid because you don't have the patience or time to discipline them better, you are a cunt.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 12:58:17 PM by fatcat »
Logged

Harry Tuttle

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
  • Please don't feed the elitists
    • View Profile
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 12:49:52 PM »

I guess you're right.  If a punishment is effective, then you should only have to do it once, never punishing your kids again.   :roll:

Good call. I punish using timeouts and loss of privileges. It would be foolish to say "you took away the favorite toy for a week because of a bad behavior - if the bad behavior is ever repeated then you know that taking away toys is not an effective punishment."

I have one child, 5 years old. We do not hit AT ALL. We do not allow anyone to hit. In my young-un's life, there have been like two or three swats on the back of the hand (for offenses like hitting or biting).  My judgment is that those swats were less effective than a stern "no" and a timeout. Taking away toys and privileges has almost always worked in correcting behavior quickly. In the one or two instances when it hasn't, the timeout has been effective, mostly because the timeout led to a much-needed nap. The child will often be angrier and more resistant to rational behavior when overly tired.

One important concept in the 'Tuttle' household is that we try to avoid battles of wills. If my child begins to engage me in a battle of wills, I try to deflect the attention to something productive. I try to use reason and patience. If my child insists on a battle of wills I MUST WIN. This is important, because I make it clear to the youngster that Mommy and Daddy know better. Still, I see it as better to teach my child more creative ways of dealing with problems. It is very clear in my home that you do not get what you want via screaming, hitting, or tantrums. You get what you earn. If my child goes haywire in a grocery store over wanting the cheap toy or candy bar, I remind the little one that this is not how to get what you want and that if the behavior doesn't stop then <current favorite toy> is going in the garage for a week or that we will not be going to see "Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs". Then simply move on matter-of-factly. Tantrums are a technique a child uses to get attention and shake up the order. Make it clear that you are not going to give in, no matter what, and that your day isn't going to be ruined. Then make consequences clear and FOLLOW THROUGH. If you give in to the demands of your child then you are not the boss, your child is.

Hitting your child is a good way of showing your child that you think violence is the best way to achieve your goals. It also sets the bar high on punishments. My child KNOWS without a doubt that when I say it is wrong to hit people that I mean it. Hitting is what you do when defending yourself against bad people trying to hurt you.
Logged
"If you're giving up your freedom to have freedom you don't have freedom, dummy."              - Mark Edge (10/11/08 show)

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 01:01:01 PM »

Hitting your child is a good way of showing your child that you think violence is the best way to achieve your goals.

tuttle = sense
Logged

Rillion

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6804
    • View Profile
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 01:05:24 PM »

If you're hitting a kid because you don't have the patience or time to discipline them better, you are a cunt.

Yeah, swatting a kid on the behind so that he doesn't run in front of a car and die is such a cunty thing to do. 
Logged

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2009, 04:05:49 PM »

If you're hitting a kid because you don't have the patience or time to discipline them better, you are a cunt.

Yeah, swatting a kid on the behind so that he doesn't run in front of a car and die is such a cunty thing to do. 

If you're close enough to hit a kid you're close enough to grab them.

Recently I took one of my nephews to the park, when we went to cross the road I took his hand and told him not to go till there were no cars before we crossed the road. If he was in a position to run into the road without me stopping him I'd be pretty shit in my role as temporary guardian.

He's only 3 and he seems to have a fairly good grasp of what traffic is. I can only hope that you have terrible communication skills if the only way you can think to stop a child from running into traffic is hitting.

If they're too small to understand and follow instructions in the big bad world, you shouldn't be letting them anywhere near moving traffic without a tight grip. I've seen nothing that can be achieved by hitting that can't be achieved by a stern talking to or other measures.

I have no idea why you're trying so hard to justify "swatting" kids. The only time you should be hitting someone is if you need to do it to prevent yourself from coming to harm. Spanking kids is not the end of the world, but it does appear to be entirely unnecessary and a very lazy and vulgar way of dealing with your kids misbehavior.

Way to go dropping to the lowest common denominator of "not spanking your kids will get them hit by cars" though.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  The Show
| | |-+  Oppinion: spanking children

// ]]>

Page created in 0.024 seconds with 33 queries.