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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2009, 03:53:53 PM »

/thread closed

No.

Who died and made you universal moderator?

 :P
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sinceredagreat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2009, 04:05:50 PM »

/thread closed

No.

Who died and made you universal moderator?

 :P

The universe, duh.

BTW, I admire your style of parenting. My mom used to, for the most part, let me do most shit and then fuck myself up, because IMO its the best way to learn, so if an iron was hot, and i tried to touch it, she would tell me no and that it was hot, but if i still went for it, and I burned myself, then I wouldnt touch it again, thats for damn sure, and I would also learn that my mom is always right. Which is why I'm a mamma's boy to this day. 
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2009, 04:27:56 PM »

BTW, I admire your style of parenting. My mom used to, for the most part, let me do most shit and then fuck myself up, because IMO its the best way to learn, so if an iron was hot, and i tried to touch it, she would tell me no and that it was hot, but if i still went for it, and I burned myself, then I wouldnt touch it again, thats for damn sure, and I would also learn that my mom is always right. Which is why I'm a mamma's boy to this day. 

That's what I kind of shoot for. It amazes me to see parents who will protect their children from every slightest discomfort or embarrassment, then teach lessons them with arbitrary doses of pain, humiliation, guilt, and fear.

I find that my child easily makes proper decisions a good chunk of the time. After a poor decision, I am there to hug and comfort. This teaches responsibility for ones self. Also, I give recommendations and advice before decisions are made. This shows that I am to be trusted and that my rules are not arbitrary. Ownership of one's own actions is one of my highest priorities. This is the tool I hope my child will use to become successful as an adult, not obedience to authority.

Of course, I never allow my child to get into blatantly dangerous situations.

There is a tone I can speak in (my wife too) that clearly warns of serious repercussions. If I say that favorite toy is gone for a week, that toy disappears for a week. If I say "if you do that, we are not going to Disneyland tomorrow" then we follow-through. Being careful what you threaten makes it very easy to follow-through.
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sinceredagreat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2009, 04:34:27 PM »

Oh my mom ALWAYS followed through. But yeah she didn't let me get into situations that would have caused me getting any serious injuries, but a burn on the hand will heal, and you sure will fuckin remember it for the rest of your life, and subconsciously, you remember that she told me so. This happens enough times over a variety of situations and your subconscious comes to the conclusion, "Damn, my mom is probably right about everything." Which 99% of the time, she is. I still question her judgement from time to time, but I understand that its her opinion and that she tells me because she wants whats best for me, and thats what truly matters.

Speaking of which, all this parenting talk reminded me of this website:

http://whythefuckdoyouhaveakid.com/

sad and hilarious all at the same fucking time....
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galets

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2009, 05:07:36 PM »

I criticize spanking and proponents of spanking because I think its unnecessary, vulgar and an unthinking method of discipline. If I'm wrong prove it, because I don't really care if I'm "insulting" anyone by calling the truth as I see it, especially if those people aren't interested in defending their view of the truth with facts.

I agree in many cases its unnecessary, vulgar and an unthinking method of discipline. But I don't think anyone here advocates beating up children. The point that I'm making is it works. Maybe badly, maybe short-term only, maybe in a long run effects are worse than short-term benefits, but that's not the point.

Tell me this: would you agree that yelling, lying to, imprisoning, intimidating child without physically touching him is harmful to the same extent?
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Mandrik

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2009, 11:34:38 PM »

Woo hoo, my soapbox call got played on the extended version of the podcast last night (10/14)!  I forgot to say my name, but I'm the guy with 5 year-old twins who used to think spanking was OK until my wife & I started doing it.  We realized that it only made them fear us & it didn't really change their behavior.  Rewarding them for good behavior has been excellent so far, though.  If I ask them to do something and they talk back, I mention that not listening means no penny for the day.  They also get bonuses for stuff like learning how to tie shoes (which they did), and learning how to read more words.  I know all kids are different, but right now at this point in my daughters' lives this method is working great.  We'll have to come up with new ways to reward them as they get older, but yelling & spanking just doesn't work with my girls.
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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2009, 11:49:42 PM »

Woo hoo, my soapbox call got played on the extended version of the podcast last night (10/14)!  I forgot to say my name, but I'm the guy with 5 year-old twins who used to think spanking was OK until my wife & I started doing it.  We realized that it only made them fear us & it didn't really change their behavior.  Rewarding them for good behavior has been excellent so far, though.  If I ask them to do something and they talk back, I mention that not listening means no penny for the day.  They also get bonuses for stuff like learning how to tie shoes (which they did), and learning how to read more words.  I know all kids are different, but right now at this point in my daughters' lives this method is working great.  We'll have to come up with new ways to reward them as they get older, but yelling & spanking just doesn't work with my girls.

You have it down pretty well. You give positive reinforcement for good behavior, and negative reinforcement for bad behavior. B.F. Skinner approves.
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rabidfurby

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2009, 11:50:07 PM »

Hitting kids is a great way to teach them that violence is the best way to solve problems when you're too impatient to use reason.
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anarchir

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2009, 12:03:52 AM »

Hitting kids is a great way to teach them that violence is the best way to solve problems when you're too impatient to use reason.

Ultimately this. Any dog owner can tell quite easily if a dog has been hit. It is sad, since certain movements will make the dog cringe with fear, years after being hit. I consider that some form of trauma for the dog.  On the other hand, choke collars work wonderful on some larger dogs with thick skin for teaching them to heel.
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sinceredagreat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2009, 12:37:52 AM »

Hitting kids is a great way to teach them that violence is the best way to solve problems when you're too impatient to use reason.

or that hitting solves a problem when reasoning is not an available option.

And please don't try to say reasoning is always an available option. Let's not try to argue and speculate ''what if" scenarios.
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rabidfurby

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2009, 12:43:28 AM »

Hitting kids is a great way to teach them that violence is the best way to solve problems when you're too impatient to use reason.

or that hitting solves a problem when reasoning is not an available option.

And please don't try to say reasoning is always an available option. Let's not try to argue and speculate ''what if" scenarios.

Bullshit. If you're claiming there are non-lifeboat scenarios where reasoning with a kid is absolutely not an option, name them.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2009, 10:19:08 AM »

I criticize spanking and proponents of spanking because I think its unnecessary, vulgar and an unthinking method of discipline. If I'm wrong prove it, because I don't really care if I'm "insulting" anyone by calling the truth as I see it, especially if those people aren't interested in defending their view of the truth with facts.

I agree in many cases its unnecessary, vulgar and an unthinking method of discipline. But I don't think anyone here advocates beating up children. The point that I'm making is it works. Maybe badly, maybe short-term only, maybe in a long run effects are worse than short-term benefits, but that's not the point.

I've never argued that spanking isn't useful for getting kids to shut up or do what you tell them in the short term. How exactly is it not the point if in the long run spanking is useless/harmful?

Quote
Tell me this: would you agree that yelling, lying to, imprisoning, intimidating child without physically touching him is harmful to the same extent?

There's far less evidence to show all those things (except maybe imprisoning) are as harmful as spanking. Maybe they are just as harmful or more harmful but I haven't seen it.

I would of course say that all things being equal (lying, yelling etc), that its better not to spank, than to spank.

The absense of spanking does not automatically = good parenting. In all those thing you've mentioned there is scope for abuse, but there is also much more ability for finesse and subtly. You can yell at a kid for good reasons and bad reasons, but I think any use of spanking carries inherent flaws because its proven to be the most harmful, and because of the principle it relies on (do what I say or you'll feel pain). You can shout at kids without upsetting them. Theres a difference between verbal derision and stressing importance with your voice.

With spanking you have to upset them or theres no point, the whole point is to make them feel pain so they stop doing something. There is no room for subtlety other than "hurt them a bit"/"hurt them alot" or "leave a mark"/"don't leave a mark". Its vulgar and abusive by its very nature. Other disciplining technique can be abused, but they are not inherently abusive.

Spanking is NOT about increasing understanding, its about immediate obedience. There is nothing communicated in physical pain other than a Pavlovian response. If a kid only behaves because they're afraid of being hit, thats not a very good basis for long term development. if a kid behaves because they understand other people have feelings and limits, thats a much healthier foundation.

If the goal of all this disciplining is to try and get it so kids can behave from their own volition, whats the point of a short term quick fix that causes more long term problems, and does nothing to communicate understanding?

Either way theres such a weight of evidence showing that spanking leads to harm, and such little evidence that children are ill effected if they aren't spanked, I can't see any solid reason in favor of it bar lazyness, tradition and emotional instability.

OF COURSE you can not spank and still be a bad parent, still abuse your children. the point is I don't agree with "spanking is just another tool" assertions since they aren't backed by anything but anecdote and preference. It's a tool thats harmful and has no proven benefit other than conveniance.

 My position also contains anecdoteon a visceral/principle level, even if it was proven hitting kids was good for them, I still wouldn't want to do it, but I also have a whole weight of evidence on my side which the pro-side either don't have or haven't yet shown.

 
Hitting kids is a great way to teach them that violence is the best way to solve problems when you're too impatient to use reason.

or that hitting solves a problem when reasoning is not an available option.

And please don't try to say reasoning is always an available option. Let's not try to argue and speculate ''what if" scenarios.

This is a complete bunk argument. People in this thread have made the same bunk arguments about stopping kids running into traffic or grabbing boiling pans. People don't hit a kid to stop them running into traffic, you grab them and you physically drag/carry them from danger. What you might do is hit them afterward (or before) to try and teach them not to do it again. Clearly alot of pro-spanking people can't even tell the difference.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2009, 11:48:11 AM »

Hitting kids is a great way to teach them that violence is the best way to solve problems when you're too impatient to use reason.

or that hitting solves a problem when reasoning is not an available option.

And please don't try to say reasoning is always an available option. Let's not try to argue and speculate ''what if" scenarios.
I agree.

Let's not pretend that youngsters are completely reasonable individuals.  As they get older they get smarter and more reasonable, but still fail to be reasonable people in many cases.

Spanking is appropriate in certain cases.


Now the anti-spank nazis are gonna come out and accuse me of wanting to use a wrecking bar to discipline my future children for the stupidest reason.
 :?
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2009, 12:30:35 PM »

Now the anti-spank nazis are gonna come out and accuse me of wanting to use a wrecking bar to discipline my future children for the stupidest reason.

I haven't seen any "anti-spank nazis" around here. Seriously. I don't even say that I'm completely dedicated to never using spanking. I am, however, completely dedicated to raising my child to a healthy, emotionally intelligent, reasonable, adult. To do so, I make sure that I am in control of my emotions when doling out punishments. Is spanking sometimes the best solution? Maybe. I just can't foresee that situation. I was more open to spanking as a solution BEFORE I had my child. Now that I see the effectiveness of other solutions and the benefits of having a child that has no physical fear of me, I am even more convinced.

I think I have brought this up before, but I grew up in a household that spanked. I'm not talking about a lot of spanking, but enough to fear the belt. My stepdad made sure that we all feared the result of making him angry. The result was children that knew better than to step out of line around him. When I was 14, there was an incident where he tried to intimidate me, threaten me, and, at last, hit me (over something that was extremely petty). That was the day when I learned that I was strong enough to stand up to him (it was also the end of my being bullied at school - a change in my self confidence level?). After that day, he had very little control over me. Fortunately, I was a pretty good kid and didn't get into much trouble. I credit my relative level-headedness as a teenager to my time in Boy Scouts and the influence of men who took the time to actually TEACH me responsibility and morality.

I have two brothers and two sisters. I'm the only one who did not run away from home before the age of 17. You see, this was not a particularly brutal household. We were not "abused", but without the patience or maturity to raise children properly, my parents exercised poor leadership. I don't hate them now, or hold a grudge, but they sure could have done better. That's how they were raised and all they knew to do. In fact, they were MUCH, MUCH more gentle and understanding then their own parents. Now it is time for me to raise the parenting bar a little more.
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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2009, 01:20:42 PM »

fatcat has stated that anyone who spanks their kids to discipline them is a psychopath who should be put in jail or some such nonsense.  He's not the only nutter here either.  Too many Stephan Molyneux listeners IMO.

You're a level headed guy who I'm sure is intelligent and rational enough to determine what level of discipline is required for a given situation.  I don't see any absurd stuff coming from you and I respect your opinion.  I agree with your comment on Boy Scouts helping out with creating a level headed individual, I feel that it helped me a lot as well.  My parents were good at teaching the important stuff, but Boy Scouts certainly helped.  There's something about hiking out into the middle of nowhere with nothing but your pack, gear, learned survival skills, and experienced leaders that takes the hellion out of you (maybe just a little bit) and forces you to think rationally.

My opinion is that reason should be used primarily in order to get children used to thinking as adults.  However some are hellions like myself and need a good whack in certain cases to keep them in line.  And I'll try to push them into Boy Scouts and other organized groups like Indian Guides and Trail Blazers if they are interested.
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