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Author Topic: Oppinion: spanking children  (Read 32311 times)

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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2009, 11:22:23 AM »

You draw no distinction between hitting someone(as a method of obedience training), and withholding benefits that you own? If someone works for me, is me docking their pay as valid a method as slapping them?
A time out doesn't involve taking something you own. If you put an employee in time out, and they cannot leave if they want to, that is called kidnapping. You also don't own your kids toys. That is their property, not yours. If you took away your employees car or cellphone without their consent, that would be stealing.

Stop acting like timeouts and taking someones property isn't the use of force, because it is.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #76 on: October 11, 2009, 11:42:08 AM »

You draw no distinction between hitting someone(as a method of obedience training), and withholding benefits that you own? If someone works for me, is me docking their pay as valid a method as slapping them?
A time out doesn't involve taking something you own. If you put an employee in time out, and they cannot leave if they want to, that is called kidnapping. You also don't own your kids toys. That is their property, not yours. If you took away your employees car or cellphone without their consent, that would be stealing.

Stop acting like timeouts and taking someones property isn't the use of force, because it is.

You can say to your employee, if you want to keep your job, you need to stay behind and catch up on work you've missed/done poorly. Is that kidnapping?

Well I've never done a time out, but since its done on your property, I think its perfectly acceptable to say, okay if you're going to flip out you can't stay in the TV room with your brother and you need to go sit in your room for a while till you calm down.

I don't know any parents who would actually gift property 100% unconditionally, and I think you and I both know that in general parents are just "renting" their kids stuff, so its not "stealing".

Does your kid have full ownership over his room? If so you should never be able to kick them out, and when they're old enough to move out, they should be able to rent out their room to lodgers and you shouldn't be able to do jack shit, otherwise your infringing his property rights.

You continually try to drag this argument to the absurd and the obtuse, I guess so you can "catch me out" on a definition or turn of phrase, so its pretty clear you're not actually interested in addressing any claim of fact on the benefits of spanking compared to not spanking.

I'm still the only person in this thread to have produced any stats on the harm/benefits of hitting kids as a method of obedience training.

You can try to make this conversation about time outs are kidnapping and taking away toys is theft if you want, but since you are the one who's claiming its fine to hit kids (i guess as long as you don't leave a mark), its up to you to meet that burden of proof.

I've never claimed that time outs and toy confiscation are without any negative consequence, what I have been claiming, and what has not been addressed by anyone here is proof that spanking provides a significant benefit to a childs welfare that can't be achieved by other discipline methods.

I look forward to you finding a way to avoid addressing the only point i care about again.
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Laetitia

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #77 on: October 11, 2009, 12:17:37 PM »

I look forward to you finding a way to avoid addressing the only point i care about again.


Any potential long term harm from any other methods of discipline, along with the idea that all forms of discipline aside from shunning, are some form of initiated force...just not worthy of discussion, in your point of view?

Interesting.
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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2009, 06:29:40 PM »

Somebody already said it here.. that kids do have the ability to reason. That's the logic I follow.
And they also have the ability to be unreasonable, and disobey.

Absolutely. I don't think you'll hear from any parent that their kids are perfect. My kids "disobey" on a daily basis, I don't consider that to be an offense (in most cases) and I don't take it as a personal insult and want to lash out at them over it. I never even think in terms of whether the kids have "obeyed" me, too harsh a word.

Pops: Daughter, 2 and a half, it is time to brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: No! I not brush teef!
Pops: Come on, let's brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: *runs away*
Pops: You know you must brush your teeth, let's go ahead and do it and then enjoy a story together shall we?
Daughter, 2 and a half: 'kay.

...is better than..

Pops: Daughter, 2 and a half, it is time to brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: No! I not brush teef!
Daughter, 2 and a half: *runs away*
Pops: *runs screaming* GET OVER HER NAOW!! WE'RE BRUSHING YOUR TEEEEETH RIGHT NAOW! *thwacks to the bottom* GET.OVER.HERE.RIGHT.NOW.BRAT! *pulls kids arm, jabs toothbrush at her*
Daughter, 2 and a half: *bbaaaaawllll*
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Rillion

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2009, 06:33:34 PM »

Pops: Daughter, 2 and a half, it is time to brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: No! I not brush teef!
Pops: Come on, let's brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: *runs away*
Pops: You know you must brush your teeth, let's go ahead and do it and then enjoy a story together shall we?
Daughter, 2 and a half: 'kay.

...is better than..

Pops: Daughter, 2 and a half, it is time to brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: No! I not brush teef!
Daughter, 2 and a half: *runs away*
Pops: *runs screaming* GET OVER HER NAOW!! WE'RE BRUSHING YOUR TEEEEETH RIGHT NAOW! *thwacks to the bottom* GET.OVER.HERE.RIGHT.NOW.BRAT! *pulls kids arm, jabs toothbrush at her*
Daughter, 2 and a half: *bbaaaaawllll*

I think it would be great if "Daughter 2 and a half" were actually your daughter's name.  Like she was part of the Borg.  I guess then it would be Daughter 2.5, though. 
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2009, 07:43:21 PM »

I look forward to you finding a way to avoid addressing the only point i care about again.


Any potential long term harm from any other methods of discipline, along with the idea that all forms of discipline aside from shunning, are some form of initiated force...just not worthy of discussion, in your point of view?

Interesting.

No, they're plenty worthy of discussion, but as far as I can tell this thread is about spanking kids.

I'm not interested in getting into a war over which parenting method is best.

When I challenged people over whether spanking is neccessary, I got a load of hogwash about if you don't spank you're kids they will run into traffic and injure themselves. No one as of yet has done anything to prove non-spanked kids get into any more accidents than spanked kids, or even that there is any significant benefit to spanking over not spanking.

I've found no evidence that not spanking kids leads to any significant problems, and plenty of evidence that spanking, particularly when overdone is damaging to a child. Now maybe there are legions of kids getting into accidents because their parents don't hit them, if someone shows me the evidence I'll be happy to change my position.

Now on balance I don't think spanking is the most crucial part of parenting, and certainly not all parents who spank are "bad" parents, but if it can't be proven to be beneficial, I don't think parents shouldn't be doing it, and I don't see why people are getting bothered by my criticism of it if they're not willing or able to prove it beyond anecdote.

There seems to be a whole bunch of "I was spanked and I turned out okay, so its okay for my kids" going on, which suggests people are doing it out of habit/tradition. which incidently is exactly the kind of attitude that comes with circumcision, something I also find distasteful.
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Evil Muppet

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2009, 08:31:49 PM »

here is how I see this. 

Whether you spank a child or not isn't much of the issue.  People are looking at the kind of punishment that is being implimented.  What I've noticed from my own personal anecdotal evidence is that what causes problems is when punishment is severe, inconsistent and unjust. 
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2009, 10:19:17 PM »

here is how I see this. 

Whether you spank a child or not isn't much of the issue.  People are looking at the kind of punishment that is being implimented.  What I've noticed from my own personal anecdotal evidence is that what causes problems is when punishment is severe, inconsistent and unjust. 

There are recommended guidelines for corporeal punishment for children that psychologists have. They say you shouldn't punish out of anger. That pain is not the purpose, and that the hand is not an appropriate place to strike on account of the small bones, etc.
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hellbilly

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2009, 10:25:20 PM »

Pops: Daughter, 2 and a half, it is time to brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: No! I not brush teef!
Pops: Come on, let's brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: *runs away*
Pops: You know you must brush your teeth, let's go ahead and do it and then enjoy a story together shall we?
Daughter, 2 and a half: 'kay.

...is better than..

Pops: Daughter, 2 and a half, it is time to brush your teeth.
Daughter, 2 and a half: No! I not brush teef!
Daughter, 2 and a half: *runs away*
Pops: *runs screaming* GET OVER HER NAOW!! WE'RE BRUSHING YOUR TEEEEETH RIGHT NAOW! *thwacks to the bottom* GET.OVER.HERE.RIGHT.NOW.BRAT! *pulls kids arm, jabs toothbrush at her*
Daughter, 2 and a half: *bbaaaaawllll*

I think it would be great if "Daughter 2 and a half" were actually your daughter's name.  Like she was part of the Borg.  I guess then it would be Daughter 2.5, though. 

:)
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #84 on: October 12, 2009, 08:33:02 AM »

here is how I see this.  

Whether you spank a child or not isn't much of the issue.  People are looking at the kind of punishment that is being implimented.  What I've noticed from my own personal anecdotal evidence is that what causes problems is when punishment is severe, inconsistent and unjust.  

There are recommended guidelines for corporeal punishment for children that psychologists have. They say you shouldn't punish out of anger. That pain is not the purpose, and that the hand is not an appropriate place to strike on account of the small bones, etc.

Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to change an undesirable attitude or behaviour. The term usually refers to methodically striking the offender with an implement, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings.

Also if your gonna puss out with "psychologists say X", you might as well go into actual solid data, of which seems to be overwhelmingly against corporal punishment providing any significant benefit.
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Willbert

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2009, 07:27:36 PM »

I thought this was a boring show topic, but I suppose I'll put my 'silver round' in.

I have a 3 year old myself, and I think that having a child means you put the welfare of the wee lass/lad above all others. Don't have the time? Find it. Don't have the resources? Make them. Don't have the patience? Learn it or fake it. Simple as that.

Most of the time I've known parents who spank, the spanking was an act of frustration on the part of the parent. Time to put your frustrations aside and examine your priorities.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2009, 01:19:29 AM »

here is how I see this.  

Whether you spank a child or not isn't much of the issue.  People are looking at the kind of punishment that is being implimented.  What I've noticed from my own personal anecdotal evidence is that what causes problems is when punishment is severe, inconsistent and unjust.  

There are recommended guidelines for corporeal punishment for children that psychologists have. They say you shouldn't punish out of anger. That pain is not the purpose, and that the hand is not an appropriate place to strike on account of the small bones, etc.

Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to change an undesirable attitude or behaviour. The term usually refers to methodically striking the offender with an implement, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings.

Also if your gonna puss out with "psychologists say X", you might as well go into actual solid data, of which seems to be overwhelmingly against corporal punishment providing any significant benefit.

Its a shame I didnt take my psychology textbooks with me when I moved, because I had the resources in one of them to respond to this. The only one book on the subject I have now that mentions corporeal punishment and is written by a doctor of psychology doesnt approve of it. Darn.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2009, 09:49:21 AM »

here is how I see this.  

Whether you spank a child or not isn't much of the issue.  People are looking at the kind of punishment that is being implimented.  What I've noticed from my own personal anecdotal evidence is that what causes problems is when punishment is severe, inconsistent and unjust.  

There are recommended guidelines for corporeal punishment for children that psychologists have. They say you shouldn't punish out of anger. That pain is not the purpose, and that the hand is not an appropriate place to strike on account of the small bones, etc.

Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to change an undesirable attitude or behaviour. The term usually refers to methodically striking the offender with an implement, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings.

Also if your gonna puss out with "psychologists say X", you might as well go into actual solid data, of which seems to be overwhelmingly against corporal punishment providing any significant benefit.

Its a shame I didnt take my psychology textbooks with me when I moved, because I had the resources in one of them to respond to this. The only one book on the subject I have now that mentions corporeal punishment and is written by a doctor of psychology doesnt approve of it. Darn.

Do those textbooks happen to have any studies that show corporal punishment? I linked to a Metastudy that covered 88 studies over a 62 year period, that shows at best Spanking is provides no significant benefit over other discipline, and at worst can be extremely damaging.

Thats hard fact. Deal with it. I can find a bunch of psychologists that say spanking is harmful but it doesn't matter compared to solid data. Don't get me wrong, most of the major problems with spanking comes from its use in excess, the study doesn't show that any level of spanking is harmful, its not intended to.

What it does show is that spanking doesn't provide any significant benefit, and generally mild spanking of your kid is not any more beneficial than no spanking, and excessive spanking is a hell of alot more damaging than no spanking.

In fact the only real solid thing the study found in favor of spanking, is that if you hit a kid it will make them shut up/comply immediately, but its meaningless since its not correlated with any long term benefit, and there are literally dozens of methods that can be used in its place.

Funnily enough they found that parents who most overused spanking where the ones themselves who were excessively spanked.

I'll happily revise my position if new data comes to light. Fuck knows I haven't read every study on the issue, and I'm not likely to.

If you can find a flaw in the methodology that you think invalidates the study, let me hear it, if you can find a more comprehensive study that shows spanking is beneficial overall, bring that out, if not just accept your pro-spanking position comes from nothing but anecdote, personal preference, inherited tradition, and possibly lazyness/emotion.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 09:54:16 AM by fatcat »
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2009, 02:33:51 PM »


1.Do those textbooks happen to have any studies that show corporal punishment? I linked to a Metastudy that covered 88 studies over a 62 year period,

2. that shows at best Spanking is provides no significant benefit over other discipline, and at worst can be extremely damaging.

3.Thats hard fact. Deal with it. I can find a bunch of psychologists that say spanking is harmful but it doesn't matter compared to solid data. Don't get me wrong, most of the major problems with spanking comes from its use in excess, the study doesn't show that any level of spanking is harmful, its not intended to.

What it does show is that spanking doesn't provide any significant benefit, and generally mild spanking of your kid is not any more beneficial than no spanking,

4. and excessive spanking is a hell of alot more damaging than no spanking.

In fact the only real solid thing the study found in favor of spanking, is that if you hit a kid it will make them shut up/comply immediately, but its meaningless since its not correlated with any long term benefit, and there are literally dozens of methods that can be used in its place.

5.Funnily enough they found that parents who most overused spanking where the ones themselves who were excessively spanked.

I'll happily revise my position if new data comes to light. Fuck knows I haven't read every study on the issue, and I'm not likely to.

6.If you can find a flaw in the methodology that you think invalidates the study, let me hear it, if you can find a more comprehensive study that shows spanking is beneficial overall, bring that out, if not just accept your pro-spanking position comes from nothing but anecdote, personal preference, inherited tradition, and possibly lazyness/emotion.

1.yes
2.so when used correctly its as effective as other forms of punishment
3.yup
4.then its abuse
5. not surprising. people tend to emulate the parenting methods they were raised with
6.not going to. I dont doubt the veracity of the data. Im not really defending spanking here.
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sinceredagreat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2009, 03:18:07 PM »

But yet in all this he has yet to prove that when both methods, used equally and correctly, one is better than the other.

If you spank your kids in excess its physical abuse.
If you yell at your kids in anger and say fucked up things its verbal abuse

IMO, verbal abuse is 10000000x worse than physical abuse. I know people who have been though both, including myself, and verbal sticks with you a HELL of a lot longer. Wounds, bruises, and cuts heal, but those mental ones are always open.


It's a preference, and if you do whatever method you prefer right, then your kids should turn out fine.

/thread closed
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