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anarchir

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2009, 03:29:54 AM »

Keep in mind that the yelling thing doesn't work for parents who yell all the time. My dad was one of those (I hate him FYI), and his disciplining me just couldn't work due to the fact that he would yell at me when I wasn't even making trouble.  I think my parents are a poor example of discipline tactics. I got punished when I wasnt in trouble at all, and while I didnt turn out as a trouble making kid IMO (no more than most at least) and I consider myself plenty intelligent, I wouldnt recommend anything they did.
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Alex Libman 15

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2009, 04:18:23 AM »

For some reason I don't like mixing politics and parenting advice.

From the political point of view, spanking should definitely be legal, heck, the only forms of child punishment that should be prohibited by natural law are those that pose serious risk (p>0.1) of physical brain damage, loss of ability to communicate, or death!

From the point of view of parenting advice...  that's not something that Free Talk Live should focus on.  I mean, c'mon...  One host had a vasectomy in his 20s, the other has like ~1 year of parenting experience, none of them have Ph.D.s in child psychology...  Aren't there better podcasts and forums for those seriously researching this issue?!

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BobRobertson

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2009, 06:25:41 AM »

If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

I will go out on a limb and assume you don't have kids.

With every child there are times, some more some less, when nothing short of physical restraint will stop them from doing something actively destructive. Sticking things in electric outlets, grabbing pans of boiling water, and the obvious "running in parking lots" are great examples.

These things don't happen once. Young kids don't learn something just once. Like karate kata, there are some things that are going to have to be learned over, and over, and over, before they are "grokked".

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Seems like alot of people here have bullshitted themselves into believing its some sort of miricale tool that you simply can't raise kids without.

Also the "saints" comment seems to suggest its more about the parents desire to hit the kids when they act out, not of it actually being a useful tool.

Then you're not paying attention. Look at the comments again, read carefully. You'll note that everyone who talks about spanking uses phrases like "have to" and such that indicate that people here are admitting this is not something they do without serious consideration.

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Again, if spanking was actually effective, and not just something that feels like it works, you wouldn't need to do it more than a couple of times before the threat of spanking was enough.

Yes, when the child has reached a point of maturity where verbal instruction works.

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It seems to me people who have unruly kids who resort to spanking, doesn't make them any less unruly. You might be able to get a token apology and get them to shut up for a minute from threat of violence (whoop de do), but it certainly isn't going to affect a long term change.

You seem to have some spark of understanding. It's not about long-term modification of behavior. If that were true, then your idea that "once is enough" would also be true, and it's not.

Raising a child is a long-term effort. Without some way to get the kids attention when it is really important (like running in a parking lot, et al) and they do not have the verbal maturity to even know what "you can die" means, then they are going to get hurt far worse than a quick spank to their bottom.

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Only natural developments in maturity is going to do that, and as far as my experience goes, that happens with talking and understanding in spite of hitting, not because.

Nice textbook answer. If you do succeed in never spanking, I will salute you for it. But I fully expect, the 30th time the kid is reaching for something you have told them "no" about 29 times today already, you, too, are going to look for some way to get their attention.

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There are clearly examples of parents dealing with unruly children without spanking, so this idea that spanking is the normal solution just seems lazy. I have absolutely no idea where this idea comes from that it takes less time and resources to raise a kid by spanking. You can use physical force without resorting to hitting.

If given a choice between locking the kid in a small room, tieing them up or spanking, I'll choose the last. But again, something you still haven't come to grips with: every kid is different, they respond to different things. Spanking is just one tool, not the only tool.

What I really do not like is endlessly threatening kids. "If you do that one more time... Stop that! That's enough! Stop it! 1! 2! 3! I said" etc etc. It's obvious that the kid knows as long as the parent is talking they can get away with anything. They only stop once the parent physically goes and gets them, something which was obvious to me when the shouting started.

As much as possible, I try to say "no" once, and if they continue then I stop them physically. No, not spank, just stop them. Take the thing away, pull them down off the counter, take their hand away from the switch, whatever.

And if that is enough, then great, it's over. As the child matures, more and more of the time that IS enough. Then the verbal "no" is enough. But that takes years, and in the mean time there are going to be times that the kid looks at you, smiles, and reaches for the boiling water AGAIN just to see what you're going to do. Not once, not twice, but over and over.

Without getting their attention, they are going to get hurt. Not just sore butt hurt, but burned. Electrocuted. Cut. Impaled. Run over. Real serious shit that a kid just doesn't have the context to understand without having experienced that minor surprise of a spank that puts in context the concept of "Gee, he says this could hurt me. Maybe he does know something, I guess I'll stop."
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2009, 08:31:12 AM »

As much as possible, I try to say "no" once, and if they continue then I stop them physically. No, not spank, just stop them. Take the thing away, pull them down off the counter, take their hand away from the switch, whatever.

And if that is enough, then great, it's over. As the child matures, more and more of the time that IS enough. Then the verbal "no" is enough. But that takes years, and in the mean time there are going to be times that the kid looks at you, smiles, and reaches for the boiling water AGAIN just to see what you're going to do. Not once, not twice, but over and over.

Without getting their attention, they are going to get hurt. Not just sore butt hurt, but burned. Electrocuted. Cut. Impaled. Run over. Real serious shit that a kid just doesn't have the context to understand without having experienced that minor surprise of a spank that puts in context the concept of "Gee, he says this could hurt me. Maybe he does know something, I guess I'll stop."

You're on the right track here...

What many of you seem to be missing is this: Children are not animals!!!!! They are human beings, capable of reason. They can be reasoned with. If you are trying to educate your children by hitting them or shouting them down then you are treating them like an animal (not that I would treat an animal like that either). If you can't take the time to work with your child then you have no business having them.

Guilt, fear, hitting, berating - these are tools of desperation. Heavy use of them will backfire by the time your child is a teen.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2009, 09:40:02 AM »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What tuttle said.


If spanking is so effective why would you ever need to do it more than once?

I will go out on a limb and assume you don't have kids.

With every child there are times, some more some less, when nothing short of physical restraint will stop them from doing something actively destructive. Sticking things in electric outlets, grabbing pans of boiling water, and the obvious "running in parking lots" are great examples.

Yeah you're right I don't have kids, I hope that isn't some disbarment to the discussion of how kids should be raised, just like not being black shouldn't be a disbarment to talking about racism towards blacks.

I am fully in favor of physical restraint when its needed. The difference is between grabbing your kid to stop them running into traffic, and hitting them afterwards to try to teach them not to do it. I think even very young kids can clock on to whether something is dangerous if you speak to them with an appropriate tone.

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These things don't happen once. Young kids don't learn something just once. Like karate kata, there are some things that are going to have to be learned over, and over, and over, before they are "grokked".

I never suggested that any punishment is some sort of cure all. I mentioned time and again that the only thing that will really produce long term behavior changes is understanding, not fear of punishment, especially since fear of punishment generally doesn't have any effect if the punisher isn't around.

The point is, unless hitting is actually proven to be more effective than other disciplining, I don't see why anyone would want to choose to do it for anything other than it is quicker to hit a kid than to punish them some other way.

Since understanding is what changes behavior, I think punishments should generally try to reinforce some sort of understanding. The only thing hitting achieves to communicate is that if you don't do what I say I'm going to hit you, and possibly that violence is a good way to solve problems.

The studies I have seen have said that spanking is only good for "immediate compliance", i.e. you hit a kid so they shut up or stop what they're doing out of fear of being hit but it doesn't actually do anything long term to stop them acting out, and there are a bunch of studies that shows it can make them more aggressive.

That was getting at with the "if spanking was perfect you'd only need to do it once" comments.

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There are clearly examples of parents dealing with unruly children without spanking, so this idea that spanking is the normal solution just seems lazy. I have absolutely no idea where this idea comes from that it takes less time and resources to raise a kid by spanking. You can use physical force without resorting to hitting.

If given a choice between locking the kid in a small room, tieing them up or spanking, I'll choose the last. But again, something you still haven't come to grips with: every kid is different, they respond to different things. Spanking is just one tool, not the only tool.

Well given those choices I'd choose spanking too, locking kids in a room unsupervised is highly irresponsible, and kiddy bondage is fucked up, but those aren't the only alternatives and they're not the alternatives I'm suggesting. Of people who actually get paid to help parents with unruly kids, I've never seen any of them advise spanking (lazy argument from authority i know)

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And if that is enough, then great, it's over. As the child matures, more and more of the time that IS enough. Then the verbal "no" is enough. But that takes years, and in the mean time there are going to be times that the kid looks at you, smiles, and reaches for the boiling water AGAIN just to see what you're going to do. Not once, not twice, but over and over.

Without getting their attention, they are going to get hurt. Not just sore butt hurt, but burned. Electrocuted. Cut. Impaled. Run over. Real serious shit that a kid just doesn't have the context to understand without having experienced that minor surprise of a spank that puts in context the concept of "Gee, he says this could hurt me. Maybe he does know something, I guess I'll stop."

I don't have much experience with kids, but I have some, every week or so for the past 3 years my twin nephews come round so their parents can have some time off.

Firstly, if theres a boiling pan on the hob they don't get let anywhere near the kitchen. If they try to come in the kitchen they get politely told that its too dangerous and I've never seen an issue of that.

 When they where younger the electric sockets within reach where heavily taped up. Sometimes one of them steals a toy from the other, and a big shitstorm kicks off, and I've never had a problem getting them to calm down and getting them to share. This happens at least once every time they're here. I don't expect it to stop any time soon, but I also don't expect spanking them to make it stop either.

I've never seen them spanked and I've never seen a need for them to be spanked. Maybe you're right and there are some kids who can't be disciplined any other way, but until I see it or see some studies to prove it I'm still gonna call spanking unnecessary, lazy and vulgar.

If what you say is right, that you have to keep spanking them so they won't reach for a boiling kettle, how is that any different than if you just kept pulling them aside and sternly warned them? if you spanking them 30 times hasn't done it by now, what would be the harm in not spanking them at all. Or how about not letting them in the kitchen for a time. Seems like not being allowed in the kitchen would be on their minds longer than a short sharp hit.

 What is a boiling kettle even doing in their reach? hell if they're tall enough to reach it they should be old enough to know boiling water is not something they want to fuck with.

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Rillion

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2009, 10:51:17 AM »

What many of you seem to be missing is this: Children are not animals!!!!!

You feel the need to inform parents that children are not animals?  Really?  I have the utmost respect for your parenting methods, but do you have to be so condescending? 

Children may not be animals, but neither do they have the reasoning capacity of adults.  Reasonable people do not throw themselves on the floor and scream when they don't get a cookie. 

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If you are trying to educate your children by hitting them or shouting them down then you are treating them like an animal

I don't think most people spank to "educate" their children.  They do it to stop the child from hurting him or herself or others.  Is it inconsistent to spank a kid because he threw a toaster at his brother's head?  No, no more than it is to fine someone for stealing.   

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Guilt, fear, hitting, berating - these are tools of desperation. Heavy use of them will backfire by the time your child is a teen.

I doubt anyone here would disagree with that. 
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Laetitia

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2009, 11:36:15 AM »

Reasonable people do not throw themselves on the floor and scream when they don't get a cookie.   

Wait... what kind of cookie are we talking about here, and is it still warm from the oven, served with a fresh cup of coffee?
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2009, 12:12:38 PM »

I don't think most people spank to "educate" their children.  They do it to stop the child from hurting him or herself or others.  Is it inconsistent to spank a kid because he threw a toaster at his brother's head?  No, no more than it is to fine someone for stealing.  

So by that logic its okay to rape a rapist and torture a torturer? Just cause something is symmetrical doesn't mean its logical or moral.

And I know there are some people who actually take the eye for an eye approach to pretty much everything esp murder, which i find an extremely primitive and intellectually shallow position.

'Fining' a thief should be about getting back the victims money, not inflicting revenge. You can't undo violence by creating more violence, but you can restitute wealth by taking wealth back, therefore your analogy is flawed.

 Although there are plenty of stupid judicial systems where money extracted from the criminal doesn't go to the victim.

Hitting kids to show them its wrong to hit people is incredibly dumb.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:21:31 PM by fatcat »
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Rillion

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2009, 08:13:13 PM »

So by that logic its okay to rape a rapist and torture a torturer? Just cause something is symmetrical doesn't mean its logical or moral.

Did I say it was?  No.  I was just countering the silly argument that it's bad to spank kids as a punishment for being violent.  If the only way to stop a kid from beating the shit out of his brother is to spank him, so be it.  A kid getting a few swats on the butt in order to prevent his brother from receiving serious injury is an okay price to pay. 
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2009, 09:48:03 PM »

My parents spanked me as a child, and I turned out fine.  I certainly don't think it's good to do it when it can be reasonably avoided, but I don't think that spanking is always and necessarily wrong.  Also, I've got a pretty good IQ even having been spanked.  I have no idea how spanking could influence intelligence unless your definition of spanking is punching your kid in the head.


This is incomplete analyzation of the statistics. I bet the average parent who spanks makes less money then the average parent that doesn't. Some statistics point out a cause-effect relationship, but all don't. This is an example of a stat that doesn't show cause-effect.

For example I bet the average Mercedes-Benz driver lives in a larger house then the Honda Accord driver. Driving the more expensive car doesn't cause you to live in a larger house, it just shows how people who generally fit into one category (Benz drivers) also fit into another category.
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2009, 10:16:00 PM »

So by that logic its okay to rape a rapist and torture a torturer? Just cause something is symmetrical doesn't mean its logical or moral.

Did I say it was?  No.  I was just countering the silly argument that it's bad to spank kids as a punishment for being violent.  If the only way to stop a kid from beating the shit out of his brother is to spank him, so be it.  A kid getting a few swats on the butt in order to prevent his brother from receiving serious injury is an okay price to pay.  


 Whats with taking the argument to hypothetical extremes all the time? IF you don't spank your kids gonna get hit by a car. If you don't spank your kids they're gonna pour boiling water on themselves.

"If the only way to stop a kid from beating the shit out of his brother is to spank him, so be it."

 If the world was going to end if you didn't fuck your parents, would you do it? Is it relevant?

The whole point is that I don't think spanking is the only way to stop a kid doing anything. No one here has done anything to establish that fact, and has done nothing but assert that thats the case, and anyone who disagrees doesn't know how to raise kids; ignoring of course that there are plenty of kids raised who are never spanked.

 Also if a kid is "beating the shit out of his brother", you don't beat him up to stop him, you grab them. All this "only way to stop them" is bullshit. You're not talking about stopping anything, you don't hit a kid to stop them from running into traffic, you grab them, and you physically drag or carry them if you have to.

You don't take a kid out of physical danger by hitting them, you do it by physical restraint, so stop trying to make this argument about the dying and injured kiddies. You're talking about how to try and alter their behavior in future so they don't do it again. Either pull out some data that shows non-spanked kids get injuries more often than spanked kids, or put that argument on the ground and step away from conversation.

If "IF" is all you have, you don't have an argument.

I think we can both agree that its better not to hit kids if you don't "have to", so pro-spanking advocates need to do the legwork and actually prove it, instead of just relying on bullshit 'common sense', unbacked assertions and ridiculous appeals to extremes of "what if you have to spank to stop your kid dying".

Also, you were making the analogy that if its okay to steal from a thief, its okay to hit a kid for hitting. Clearly thats an allusion to eye for an eye mentality, i.e. one turn deserves the same in kind. I took it to its conclusion and it didn't hold up. It's either that or a non sequitir, or you haven't made the argument that connects fining thieves and hitting kids.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 10:19:26 PM by fatcat »
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2009, 10:21:10 PM »

What's worse, spanking your kid, or sending them to public school?
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2009, 10:42:50 PM »

What if your 7 yo little kid likes playing with fire, and pulls a moblie digit(minus the crazy)?

Or steals your car and crashes it?

Is it OK to give them a whoopin' then?
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fatcat

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2009, 10:49:17 PM »

What if your 7 yo little kid likes playing with fire, and pulls a moblie digit(minus the crazy)?

Or steals your car and crashes it?

Is it OK to give them a whoopin' then?

the only time I'll beat a kid is if he's some sort of pituitary gland tumor giant freak and the only way I can stop them from beating me/another person is by knocking them unconscious.


« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 10:58:55 PM by fatcat »
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blackie

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Re: Oppinion: spanking children
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2009, 11:31:51 PM »

the only time I'll beat a kid is if he's some sort of pituitary gland tumor giant freak and the only way I can stop them from beating me/another person is by knocking them unconscious.
Why does size matter?
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