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Author Topic: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong  (Read 47588 times)

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alaric89

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2011, 02:34:29 AM »

Tom, now that you have smartly beaten us all into saying we libertarians like to lock innocent people up for life, would you mind summing up?
What the hell is your point anyway?
Why did you cut the thread into at least three pieces of straw man, and red hearing drivel?

Tom Foppiano

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2011, 02:21:58 PM »

Tom, now that you have smartly beaten us all into saying we libertarians like to lock innocent people up for life, would you mind summing up?
What the hell is your point anyway?
Why did you cut the thread into at least three pieces of straw man, and red hearing drivel?

The point of claiming that "we libertarians like to lock innocent people up for life" was to show that Mark's logic wasn't fair. In case you missed it, Mark said that because innocent people will be put to death if there is a death penalty, capital punishment advocates "support" putting innocent people to death. Perhaps, that is the drivel we should be criticizing.

I didn't just randomly come on the forums and decide to bash prison supporters. Just trying to show what I think is inconsistency in their logic.

All someone had to do was write, "Perhaps saying that death penalty advocates SUPPORT killing innocent people isn't correct. I mean, I support airplanes but I don't support them crashing into unsuspecting people, even though that will happen if people use airplanes."

I fucking love FTL. The hosts and I agree on 95% of the issues. The forums are a good place to discuss the 5%.
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alaric89

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2011, 03:04:11 PM »

Mmm'kay.

alaric89

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2011, 06:18:21 AM »

Escape From New York Original 1981 Trailer
Demolition Man Trailer
I really recommend these two movies to libertarians who are interested in how to deal with real criminals in a free society. Not many answers but a lot of food for thought in both. They are also just really good.

sanchopanza

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2011, 07:32:15 AM »

What I've heard Mark say is, if someone supports the death penalty knowing innocent people are sentenced to death,  then that person supports putting innocent people to death. Logically, I can't find a way to disagree with that statement.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that human beings make mistakes. Right? It stands to reason that 100% of those sentenced to death CANNOT BE guilty. Statistically impossible. So, there must be a small percentage that are truly innocent. How much? Who knows? 5%? 2%? Do the math at 1%. If we can concede that 1% of those on death row who are put to death are truly innocent, then we are applying that penalty unjustly on the innocent 1% for the sake of the other 99% and I find THAT unacceptable. Would ANY death penalty supporter find it acceptable if he or she were innocent and sentenced to death?
  I know I can't.

There is a very good movie starring Kevin Spacey and Laura Linney that deals with exactly this subject, The Life Of David Gayle.

I'm a new listener and, prior to finding FTL, I supported the death penalty. Now, I'm against it.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 03:10:44 PM by sanchopanza »
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dalebert

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2011, 11:11:10 AM »

I find it rather silly that you (Tom) are so dismissive of this rather significant fact that a prison sentence can be ended and even compensated. It's a fixable mistake. I would even concede that if you support imprisoning criminals, you support imprisoning innocent people, and that's why it's so important that such power be used with incredible restraint. It's why people should try to live by the slogan that it's better to release 100 guilty people than to punish one innocent one, but they don't. In fact, I've argued many times that I would never use prison as a punishment but only as a method of keeping people safe as a last resort. I think prisons should be rethought as rehabilitation or as preventatives and not as punishment. They should be places that people can live where they're kept away from harming anyone. I'd like to see them supported with charity and by family members of inmates and if they were run by private organizations, there would be more accountability and great restraint used before using force to put someone in one. Prisons in the Netherlands (or is it the Danes?) are incredibly successful when it comes to recidivism rates and they are incredibly humane. They're completely refocused toward rehabilitation and reintegration into polite society rather than punishment. But so many people are in vengeance mode rather than problem-solving mode and it seriously fucks everything up. It's a cycle of abuse that must be ended.

alaric89

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2011, 11:47:28 AM »

Most of Scandinavia actually, but here in Norway is the current poster child for how well that system works.** It is not particularly popular right now since it has been found that true monsters can game the system. Many Norwegian youth would go for QuickMikes island at the moment. My daughter who knew two of the victims* mentioned some pretty nasty ways she would like to see the July terrorist die.

* Norway has a 5m population and these days of facebook and twitter almost every youth knew one of the victims. There is a very unusual presence of a whole generation taking a terrorist attack personally.

** cracked.com mentioned this a week or two ago.

alaric89

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2011, 04:36:19 PM »

I'll lock him in my basement if he's hot. And instead of lotion, I'll lower the lube down in a bucket...

Note: I refuse to post on the DP rethreads.

Are you another one of those weirdos that think psychos are sexy, like Candy from Sex, Lies & Anarchy?
Man, you people give me the eebie jeebies.

dalebert

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2011, 10:11:45 PM »

Are you another one of those weirdos that think psychos are sexy, like Candy from Sex, Lies & Anarchy?

I imagine they're two completely unrelated characteristics but I'm sure there's occasionally overlap.

Tom Foppiano

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2011, 01:37:57 AM »

What I've heard Mark say is, if someone supports the death penalty knowing innocent people are sentenced to death,  then that person supports putting innocent people to death. Logically, I can't find a way to disagree with that statement.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that human beings make mistakes. Right? It stands to reason that 100% of those sentenced to death CANNOT BE guilty. Statistically impossible. So, there must be a small percentage that are truly innocent. How much? Who knows? 5%? 2%? Do the math at 1%. If we can concede that 1% of those on death row who are put to death are truly innocent, then we are applying that penalty unjustly on the innocent 1% for the sake of the other 99% and I find THAT unacceptable. Would ANY death penalty supporter find it acceptable if he or she were innocent and sentenced to death?
  I know I can't.

There is a very good movie starring Kevin Spacey and Laura Linney that deals with exactly this subject, The Life Of David Gayle.

I'm a new listener and, prior to finding FTL, I supported the death penalty. Now, I'm against it.


Hear we go again. First of all, I would never, ever kill anyone unless they were in process of seriously hurting someone else. EVER! I don't even step on bugs! I constantly question whether my cats have the same rights I do. I've spent a great deal of time wondering if my keeping the cats inside at night (against their will) is immoral, even though I'm doing it because I love them and don't want them to get hit by a car or eaten by dogs/coyotes. I'm not some kind of hate filled douche bag screaming about how awesome killing human beings is.

On to my reply.

I agree that having the death penalty will result in innocent people being killed. 100% agree.

But don't you agree that having a prison system will result in innocent people being locked up in jail for life? Yes, some will be released and financially compensated for the mistake, but others will fall through the cracks and will stay in jail until they're dead.

You wrote that its unacceptable for you to support to DP because at least one innocent person will be put to death. So why it is acceptable to put people in prison when you know at least one innocent person will be put in prison for his/her life? See the point? Both of these methods will be used against innocents who will never be released and compensated.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 02:25:11 AM by Tom Foppiano »
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2011, 02:20:33 AM »

I find it rather silly that you (Tom) are so dismissive of this rather significant fact that a prison sentence can be ended and even compensated. It's a fixable mistake. I would even concede that if you support imprisoning criminals, you support imprisoning innocent people, and that's why it's so important that such power be used with incredible restraint.

I don't find it silly to point out that both the DP and prison will be used against some innocent people who will never be "compensated." Ever. They will be "punished" for a crime they didn't commit until they're dead.

And, if I put you in jail for 30 years, released you, and gave you $10 million or $20 million.....you'd think the problem was "fixed?" I know what you mean, though. I'd prefer to be in jail and alive over being dead. If I believed in heaven, I might reconsider.

Anyways, I think my point has been communicated, despite the random replies that read something like, "Death is forever. Jail can be ended." Those guys just won't get what I'm saying.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 03:08:49 AM by Tom Foppiano »
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FTL_Mark

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2011, 12:35:56 AM »

I find it rather silly that you (Tom) are so dismissive of this rather significant fact that a prison sentence can be ended and even compensated. It's a fixable mistake. I would even concede that if you support imprisoning criminals, you support imprisoning innocent people, and that's why it's so important that such power be used with incredible restraint.

I don't find it silly to point out that both the DP and prison will be used against some innocent people who will never be "compensated." Ever. They will be "punished" for a crime they didn't commit until they're dead.

And, if I put you in jail for 30 years, released you, and gave you $10 million or $20 million.....you'd think the problem was "fixed?" I know what you mean, though. I'd prefer to be in jail and alive over being dead. If I believed in heaven, I might reconsider.

Anyways, I think my point has been communicated, despite the random replies that read something like, "Death is forever. Jail can be ended." Those guys just won't get what I'm saying.

I haven't read this whole thing, and I am not gonna. Tom has a valid point that innocents' rights will be violated in both cases. I think that the important part is that one punishment can be undone, and the other obviously can not. A lifer can continue to advocate for his innocence, while a deadman just rots. Which of these situations would you rather be in as an innocent, Tom? Perfect systems are not an option. I am proposing better ones. Do you think I have failed?
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2011, 02:57:58 AM »

Oh Boy.

Mark actually read some of this post (which is awesome) and wrote....

"I haven't read this whole thing, and I am not gonna. Tom has a valid point that innocents' rights will be violated in both cases. I think that the important part is that one punishment can be undone, and the other obviously can not. A lifer can continue to advocate for his innocence, while a deadman just rots. Which of these situations would you rather be in as an innocent, Tom? Perfect systems are not an option. I am proposing better ones. Do you think I have failed?"

You should read the first post. That was my original point. We somehow managed to get on the question of innocents later.

I don't think your argument failed. You don't want to kill murderers, in part, because some of them will be innocent. That's fine with me. I totally understand where you are coming from.

IMO, however, the question of innocents is no less applicable to prison as it is to death. I take slavery just as seriously as I take murder. Both systems will be used against innocent persons who will never be free again.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2011, 11:15:08 AM »

How bout we just put a splinter under their fingernail for life.

Splinters undr your finger nail hurt alot, especially the really small ones.

If you find out the guy didn't do it, take the splinter out with some tweezers.

I know, its still making someone suffer wrongly, but its the best I can come up with without just letting every accused murderer go scott free.


I hate that expression........ Scott free.

I knew a guy once named Scott. He wasn't free. He worked at the Hump N' Dump gas station up the highway for 10 years and owed hix ex tons of child support money.  Scott free? My ass.
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