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Author Topic: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong  (Read 48203 times)

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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2011, 08:06:08 PM »



Its simple for me. It's about compensation. A petty thief can pay back their victim. You can add up all the things he stole, come up with a dollar amount + time and trouble, total it up and make them pay it back. A murderer cannot do this. This is the ultimate form of thievery. Stealing someones life cannot be reversed.  Thats the cutoff line for me.



What about rape? Can rape not steal almost everything from someone?


Not really. Rape is pretty bad, but you're still alive, although maybe emotionally scarred. Not even close to what happens when someone murders you though.

What would be fair compensation for a rape victim though, I cannot say.  I only run murderers island. You'll have to figure that shit out on your own.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2011, 11:33:24 PM »


What would be fair compensation for a rape victim though, I cannot say.  I only run murderers island. You'll have to figure that shit out on your own.

Yeah, I don't have really good answers either. Its tough stuff.

And I just thought of this....what about someone who breaks a victim's neck and they become completely unable to move and can only survive on a breathing machine?
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2011, 11:40:32 PM »

And I just thought of this....what about someone who breaks a victim's neck and they become completely unable to move and can only survive on a breathing machine?


Stuff his mouth with Psilocybin mushrooms and hand him a hundred dollar bill and tell him its a billion dollar bill.


He wont know the difference.

Wait, you cant hand it to him.... he cant move. Just put it on his chest.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 11:43:35 PM by quickmike »
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freetalklivebeatch

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2011, 12:06:21 AM »

We should use rapists and murderers in the space program.

They could be on one way spaceships to Mars, if they die, oh well.  Fuck it.

Think of the money the space program would save using cardboard box rockets.
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alaric89

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2011, 02:56:56 AM »

What if the murderer was a chick?

So, you're not supposed to treat women equally?

Hmm.
I thought I would sit this one out, but ...meh.
I think you are in fact on to something BJ, this sort of "slavery" would be a way for restitution to be payed. It is just that as a lover of adult art (as long as no one is actually hurt), I would rather it all be voluntary. I don't know. As I write this, I am listening to the 13-12-2011 show and Derrik and Mark are freaking me the fuck out. Ian is actually the voice of reason.
I still would rather stick with the emergent solution in libpar. It may be a cop out, but I really don't like to talk about this stuff. I used to watch that Discovery Channel show about murderers, somehow I just didn't like it anymore one day, they just depressed me.

dalebert

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2011, 03:07:57 AM »

The slippery slope is assuming that an outsider can tell someone else what will make them better off. I am not arguing in favor of the death penalty. I wasn't trying to make this discussion thread about morals. Simply economics.

I think they mean they are not objectively better off. You're talking about their feelings, but ultimately a person's feelings are their own domain. They may very well feel better if they learn to forgive. They may feel better if someone simply lied to them and said the killer has been tortured and killed when they're really jailed for life in secret. Yes, feelings are subjective, but it's not rational (I would posit) for someone to feel better because someone else is suffering.When people say the victim is no better off, they're speaking of their objective state in the physical world and not how they feel. The point of the statement is to address the irrationality of feeling better due to someone else's suffering.

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P.S. What do you mean, "Its part of the violent market." Isn't putting someone is prison "violent?" Or forcibly taking back stolen property?

Yes, but you compared killing someone to choosing to play a video game! Playing a video game is a personal choice that involves no violence against anyone. It's absurd to compare the two choices and call it all the free market. Any violence that happens is not part of the free market. What does free mean if not freedom from violence?

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Do you advocate pacifism? And I don't mean that as a slur. Some of my favorite people are pacifists.

I am, for the most part, a pacifist, but that has nothing to do with my clarifications above. What's the relevance?

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2011, 09:22:05 AM »

What does free mean if not freedom from hunger or freedom from want?
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BonerJoe

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2011, 11:35:20 AM »

What does free mean if not freedom from hunger or freedom from want?

Exactly.

This is what happens when you theorize a perfect world too much. You strike down an entire concept, just because there are nuances in the application of it.

I gotta wonder, who is going to stop me from enacting revenge in a "free" society, besides possible counter revenge from the agressor's family or friends? I can deal with finger waving from philosophical hard-liners.

And Dale doesn't need a gun. He doesn't live on the first floor apartment in the ghetto.
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dalebert

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2011, 11:53:11 AM »

And Dale doesn't need a gun. He doesn't live on the first floor apartment in the ghetto.

I lived in your apt for months without a gun before you lived there, back when the house was more empty.

BonerJoe

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2011, 11:54:26 AM »

And Dale doesn't need a gun. He doesn't live on the first floor apartment in the ghetto.

I lived in your apt for months without a gun before you lived there, back when the house was more empty.

WELL IM GLAD NOBODY CAME IN AT 4 AM AND STARTED STEALING YOUR SHIT WHILE YOU WERE HOME.

 :x
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dalebert

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2011, 11:55:45 AM »

What does free mean if not freedom from hunger or freedom from want?

I'm not trying to be nuanced at all. I'm talking about how LIBERTARIANS define freedom. How does anyone "force" you to do something you don't want to do or stop you from doing something you want to do? Absent sci-fi mind rays and psychic powers, they threaten you with violence. That's it in a nutshell. I'm shocked that I have to explain really basic libertarian concepts to Tom, like what the free market is.

Killing people is not part of the free market. Other crimes are not part of the free market. The free market includes voluntary interactions between peaceful people. Look, you can have debates about when killing someone is justified, but don't take any choice that anyone can ever make and count them all in the free market or it loses any meaning along with words like statism, which is just a form of highly-organized crime from the POV of a free market proponent.

*sigh*
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 12:00:51 PM by Dalebert »
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2011, 02:14:50 PM »

What does free mean if not freedom from hunger or freedom from want?

I'm shocked that I have to explain really basic libertarian concepts to Tom, like what the free market is.


*sigh*


Thats nice.

I can only think of a handful of prominent libertarians that don't believe in using force against a person who has violated someone else's property rights. I am not in the libertarian minority when I claim that victims or their heirs have a right to use force against aggressors. That is not incompatible with the NAP, is not unlibertarian, and certainly falls within the legitimate domain of the free market.

I'm shocked that you believe in a person being "objectively" better off. I don't know of any Austrian economists who would agree with you. If there were such thing as an objective better off, then people wouldn't trade. If shoes, cds, houses, and cars are always better than money, no one would buy them. In ever transaction, each participant thinks they will be better off.

You're being unhappy that I used the same logic in both a moral and "immoral" circumstance in unjustified. I can also claim that murderers think they will be better off for committing murder. Does that mean I condone murder? No. Its just simple economics.

And (onto another subject) I don't claim to hold all of the libertarian answers in the world and neither should you. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with my claim that force can used against persons who have violated someone else's property rights. The NAP is the non AGGRESSION principle not the non FORCE principle.

I know from listening to FTL that most of the hosts don't believe in using force against property right violators after the fact, but many others do. Do the people at Mises, CATO, and FEE have it all wrong? Do you need to "explain really basic libertarian concepts to Murray Rothbard or Ludwig von Mises?" Yes I know they're dead.

Give me a break with the more-libertarian-than-thou nonsense.
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dalebert

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2011, 03:27:16 PM »

Tom, you're picking arguments about things I wasn't trying to argue. What you're addressing is a totally worthwhile discussion to have, i.e. what sorts of actions make sense, are "moral", etc. when someone's actions venture OUTSIDE of free market choices and start to infringe on the rights of others. My only contention is with calling these things part of the free market. If you do, then the statism we have right now, and the monopoly justice system we have now, are simply expressions of the free market and the expression becomes meaningless.

If deciding whether to go kill someone as a punishment is simply a free market choice, then there is no discussion to be had about whether it's right or wrong. Do you see what I mean? I'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong. The fact that it is a serious point of contention is because it involves the use of violence, and that means it's not in the realm of the free market. Choices made within the realm of the free market are nobody's business but the choice-maker's and there should be no contention, at least amongst principled liberty-lovers, as to whether they are right or wrong.

Tom Foppiano

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2011, 04:54:43 PM »

My only contention is with calling these things part of the free market. If you do, then the statism we have right now, and the monopoly justice system we have now, are simply expressions of the free market and the expression becomes meaningless.



I strongly disagree that using force/violence against someone is always outside of the free market. The statism we have now condones using initiatory violence. Initiatory force/violence IS outside the market, but not force/violence alone.

Just think about it. Would a person being raped, not the rapist, be taking action outside the free market if they used violence to stop the rape? I don't think so. And I don't think so because actions taken outside of the free market should be illegal/illegitimate. IMO. Again, the rapist is not acting within the realm of the legitimacy of the free market, but the victim who fights for their life, body, property is.

And I will even go farther than immediate defensive force. I contend that one has every right to reclaim stolen property using (commensurate) force. And that it (the using of commensurate force to reclaim stolen property) is not statism and would be completely legal in a anarcho-capitalist world.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Mark + Stephanie + Death Penalty = Wrong
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2011, 04:59:08 PM »

In case I failed to make myself clear in previous posts, I do not think that murder is a free market transaction. Nor, do I think that rape, theft, fraud, or battery are free market transactions. Initiatory force, is always outside the market.
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