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Author Topic: Libertarianism and Religion  (Read 39158 times)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #195 on: February 27, 2009, 01:10:11 PM »

Okay, then I'll keep pissing on his head then, thanks.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #196 on: February 27, 2009, 01:11:34 PM »

No. A small part does not equal the whole.


pffffffft. You want logic to be used here?
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #197 on: February 27, 2009, 01:14:27 PM »

No. A small part does not equal the whole.


pffffffft. You want logic to be used here?

PENIS
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #198 on: February 27, 2009, 07:56:41 PM »

ALL things have a starting point, it's a logical necessity that the universe has one too.  That thing which has no starting point, that's what you call God.

If you believe that, then why have you chosen to obey laws from a book- especially one with a specific God?
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fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #199 on: February 27, 2009, 08:24:07 PM »

ALL things have a starting point, it's a logical necessity that the universe has one too.  That thing which has no starting point, that's what you call God.

Can you please demonstrate this instead of just constantly asserting it?

Certainly lots of things have starting points, but in terms of the universe having one,

It is similar to saying, everything that is alive will die from aging. While it seems logical, because there are so many examples, it is not the same thing as proving it, and in fact, there are very few life forms that can live indefinitely without aging.

One cannot use trends as proof of fact. The idea that everything needs a cause is extremely backwards logic to prove there was a first cause, because essentially, you are saying, "okay, there must be a first cause, and that thing is really special and doesn't need a cause, unlike everything else in the universe".

Of course, there are many different possibilities, none of which have yet been proven. There could be one start point, the universe could be infinite regression, there could be an explanation no one has even thought of. Certainly there are very few humans who are even close to understanding the operation of the universe on a quantum scale.

We know gravity effects time, so there is no reason to assume that time works the same.

As I have said before, in order to establish whether the universe has a starting point, it is first necessary to find this starting point.

Are you asserting that the big bang is the start of the universe? If so where did all the energy come from that started it?

Are you asserting there is another point that must have been the start of the universe? If so what is it and what proof is there of it.

If you're going to claim that God made all the energy, but yet you have no evidence of what this god is or how it operates, merely that it must be what started the universe, then why not just say the universe started itself? It makes no more sense to inject the idea of a creator, when you have absolutely no evidence of one, but are merely going to use the fact that you think everything needs a cause, so god must be the cause.

If god was always there, and didn't need a creator, why not just say the universe was always there, and didn't need a creator, and one day it just sprang into life.

If its possible for there to be an eternal god that didn't need a cause, why isn't it possible for there to be an eternal universe that didn't need a cause?

But it does not matter what is possible, it matters what is, and what can be proven to be.

Thinking the universe started itself is just as baseless as thinking a creator started it, when there is no evidence of either, except the claim of a creator requires even more proof, because we know there is a universe, yet there is no evidence of a creator, so the idea of the universe starting, while just as unproven, would require one less step of explanation.

In order to prove that the universe was created by a creator, not only would it be necessary to prove that the universe did have a start point, but it would be necessary to prove that this start point was a creator or form of creation, rather than some other cause.
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blackie

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #200 on: February 27, 2009, 09:10:19 PM »

ALL things have a starting point, it's a logical necessity that the universe has one too.  That thing which has no starting point, that's what you call God.

If you believe that, then why have you chosen to obey laws from a book- especially one with a specific God?
He doesn't obey those laws.
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blackie

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #201 on: February 27, 2009, 09:28:12 PM »

If you're going to claim that God made all the energy, but yet you have no evidence of what this god is or how it operates, merely that it must be what started the universe, then why not just say the universe started itself?
I think he has said Judaism is pantheistic, so he is pretty much saying that the universe started itself.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #202 on: February 27, 2009, 09:50:54 PM »

ALL things have a starting point, it's a logical necessity that the universe has one too.  That thing which has no starting point, that's what you call God.

If you believe that, then why have you chosen to obey laws from a book- especially one with a specific God?
He doesn't obey those laws.

Once you mentioned a Judaism/Pantheism link, I looked it up. Hadn't ever heard of that connection before, and it still doesn't quite make sense to me, why there's any link at all.

The more Pantheism is introduced into various religions, it seems all it does is dilute the principles that the religion was based on. That's pretty much working against a religion form within!
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #203 on: February 27, 2009, 10:40:08 PM »

ALL things have a starting point, it's a logical necessity that the universe has one too.  That thing which has no starting point, that's what you call God.



It's self-contradictory to say "all things have a starting point" and then turn right around and say "that thing which has NO starting point..."

In any case, there is no physical reason why the cosmos needs any sort of "starting point." An infinite time is impossible for finite beings to grasp, but that does not mean that such might not be the case. The conception of an eternal deity  is just as difficult to comprehend.
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GRAYWOLF

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #204 on: February 28, 2009, 02:09:44 AM »


That sounds great and all, but you're using a non-standard definition of "spirituality," and you haven't explained why there should be a "politics" of coping with things we can't understand. 

Some people cope with things they can't understand by saying "God did it."  Those people I would say are religious.

Some people cope with things they can't understand by saying "I don't know" or "I'll find out."  There is nothing religious about that, unless you warp the definition of "religion" into something that won't be recognized by the lay believer, the clergy, or the academic. 


Let me start by pointing out that I did say it was oversimplified...

Definition: "spirituality n. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual."

My point is, it makes no difference whether you say "God did it", "Allah did it", "Buddah did it", etc...it is using spirituality to cope. I guess you could say spirituality is faith.

Religion is what differentiates the political factions of spirituality...They are as different as the R's & D's...sure, they use different rhetoric, but they are basically the same.
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GRAYWOLF

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #205 on: February 28, 2009, 06:37:52 AM »

Therefore, Obama is God?

Of course he is...he's come down to save all of us from ourselves...soon we will never have to take responsibility for any action...I can't wait!
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #206 on: February 28, 2009, 06:42:33 AM »

ALL things have a starting point, it's a logical necessity that the universe has one too.  That thing which has no starting point, that's what you call God.


An infinite time is impossible for finite beings to grasp, but that does not mean that such might not be the case. The conception of an eternal deity  is just as difficult to comprehend.
Well then that is what you'd call God. 
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #207 on: February 28, 2009, 09:42:28 AM »

Hhrrmm.... There you all go again, batting around the pros and cons of a specific moral question while studiously avoiding its impact on the big picture of liberty vs. slavery....You're welcome, no extra charge.

Do try and get over yourself. 

Just being a little douchebaggish to make a point....  Really, you're one of the folks on this board who is smart and gets it.  Don't you ever feel the desire to start pushing the discussion in a more productive direction? I tend to be absent from here for long stretches just because there's so much mindless jabber and endless repetition to crawl through to find something good to read. Its rough, and I know you get annoyed too.... I'm just saying, this IS our board, no one is controlling the content.... Its a perfect place to demonstrate the power of free exchange to produce better ideas. Why not use it for that? You've put too much intelligent stuff out here to try to make me believe you can't help pull the discussion up a notch or two.... Secretly, you know you want to!

Now why would I want to go and make being here feel like work?   If my job were Professional Discussion Pusher, then I would be happy to do it.  But as it stands, I prefer to enjoy myself here.  That means posting carefully thought-out responses when the mood compels me, and goofing around when it doesn't.   Besides, when I do  post a carefully considered commentary on a subject, more often than not most people pass it by completely because they don't want to tackle anything that takes a while to read.  And that's not a slam against them, because they're just here to enjoy themselves too. 

As for "jabber and endless repetition".....every point you just made in your lengthier post above has already been made on this forum whenever the topic of religion comes up.  That doesn't make it mindless, but it is at least repetitive.   You can't really blame people for not wanting to just reiterate the same points over and over, no matter how good or relevant those points may be.  And in my experience, berating people for not talking about what you want to discuss is not a very effective way to get them to do it. 

Yeah, I know, and you're right about the entertainment aspect of the board....  But I do like the turn this thread has taken just below!  Now we're gettin' somewhere!
The whole thing is this: I encourage people I know to visit this board to help them understand what I tell them about liberty, and it helps if they don't get run aground on the other stuff too much. If I suggest that they focus on a particular thread, the hope is that it will show them we have different but clear and rational alternatives to what their brains have been soaking in for so long....

Don't worry though, I also tell them we have just as much crazy and perversity as any other unmoderated bbs..... Hence, we're 'normal' just like them.

I just like to see as many of our resources as possible being used to promote our view, and to make it inviting too. I just think its more effective not to mix things up too much between the crazy and the cogent.

As always Ril, you influenced this thread for the better without even trying! Thanx!
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #208 on: February 28, 2009, 11:42:46 AM »

My point is, it makes no difference whether you say "God did it", "Allah did it", "Buddah did it", etc...it is using spirituality to cope.

Yes, it is.  That doesn't mean that coping is itself spirituality. 

Quote
I guess you could say spirituality is faith.

You could, but I don't think that encapsulates what most people mean by it.

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Religion is what differentiates the political factions of spirituality

What do you mean by "political" in this context? 
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GRAYWOLF

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #209 on: February 28, 2009, 07:46:29 PM »

Yes, it is.  That doesn't mean that coping is itself spirituality.

I didn't say it was.



Quote
What do you mean by "political" in this context? 

As practiced by the Rs & Ds and religions, politics is the art of dividing and controlling people of minimally dissimilar interests.
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