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Author Topic: Libertarianism and Religion  (Read 39174 times)

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Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #180 on: February 27, 2009, 01:20:47 AM »

Delete post please.
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GRAYWOLF

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #181 on: February 27, 2009, 05:22:02 AM »

I've ben saying it for years...

"Religion is the politics of spirituality"


Spirituality can be oversimplified by:

Spirituality is the way we cope with things we can not otherwise explain. Whether we cope by saying "I don't understand and I'm cool with it" or "if I can't come up with an explanation, (insert name of omniscient omnipotent idol here)'s will...unless it makes him look bad then it was 'freewill' or (some other omniscient omnipotent idol)" or "I think it, therefore it is" or whatever else one comes up with...In a liberal* society (not Liberal society), each individual is free to choose the coping mechanism(s) they desire and no one else cares because they believe in freedom for the other person as much as for themselves.






* liberal: favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible
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fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #182 on: February 27, 2009, 09:33:45 AM »

That's exactly the whole point!  God is that unexplainable force that initiated the universe.  You can't explain it, but there must be something that initiated everything.  Call that force what you will, I call it God. 

Point 3 is fallacious as it relies on the assumption that this great initiator is human-like or even has feelings.  Just because you're used to all the Christians and Muslims babbling on about how God "does things for a reason" doesn't mean that the "great initiator" (or whatever the hell you'd prefer to call it) is anything like a human or even explainable in human emotions.

Why would you call it god when god is commonly known to mean a deity? Unless of course you wanted a bullshit rationalization for you to believe in a deity without actually having to prove any deity exists.

What if this "starting cause" is just some kind of particle that was always there? In fact, since by accepting its possible for god to always be there, then you need to prove how the universe couldn't have just always been there as some invisible nothing, and then suddenly spring into its current form.

They're both as irrational positions to believe to be true because there is inadequate evidence to believe in either claim.

There's no more reason to believe a god created the universe, than to believe that this universe was created in a lab, in another larger universe, or that the universe was created by a cosmic ice cow colliding with a transcendental fire giant

You still haven't shown any evidence that the universe has a starting point, and you also need to demonstrate how its possible for God to just exist, or always exist, but its not possible for the universe to do the same, or another entity that is not a god to do the same.

If everything has to have a cause, why doesn't god have to have a cause?

As I have mentioned before, the concept that everything has to have a cause leads Turtles all the way down, otherwise known as infinite regression.

Now this is a possible way for the universe to exist, but we neither know whether there is an infinite chain of causes, or there is a single starting cause that had no cause. The point is, there is no evidence to believe in either position, and you have provided no evidence to support the idea that the universe had a first cause, and that first cause always existed.

You are simply labeling a potential unknown "god", and using it as proof of gods existence. Assuming that the universe had a first cause, you have not explained any details about the first cause, or how it is possible for this first cause to exist, how it exists, and why it doesn't itself need a cause, you have merely said, "the universe must have had a cause, that cause was god, therefore god exists".

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God is that unexplainable force that initiated the universe.  You can't explain it, but there must be something that initiated everything.

3 points that need to validated for this claim to be valid.

1. Point to the starting point of the universe and provide evidence that you know there was nothing before it.

2. Provide evidence that you know what this cause was. What you are doing now is simply asserting that the universe has to have had a cause (unproven assertion number 1), and then claiming that the cause must have been god (unproven assertion number 2)

If by "god" you just mean "whatever started the universe", and are not implying any other properties of "god", then you are being highly disingenuous, as you are saying "whatever made the universe must be god", which by your definition of god means "whatever made the universe is whatever made the universe", which is essentially devoid of any explanatory power.

If the universe does have a start point, which I am perfectly willing to accept that it may have, then yes, there would have to be a cause, but you have provided no evidence for what this cause was, other than saying, "whatever it the cause is, im going to call it god".

For example, the sun exist. We can see how other suns are formed in nebula from the gravitational attraction of gases, which compresses to a point where the frictional forces cause temperature to rise to the autoignition point of the gases. You can point a telescope in the sky and see this shit happening today, at nearly every stage of a suns lifecycle. This counts for fairly strong evidence of what caused are sun to exist. There may be another explanation, but so far thats what has the most evidence and thats whats most reasonable to believe.

Now scientists could have just said, the sun must have had a cause, whatever that cause was must have been god, but they decided not to engage in biased fallacy, and to actually work out what causes stars to exist, rather than use the lack of knowledge as a hiding ground for their pet beliefs.

Of course, there is then the question, what caused the gases to come into existence? and at a certain point we get to "we don't know", as we don't have any information about what existence was like before the big bang, or even if there was existence before the big bang, if the universe has a start and end point, or if it operates in a different manner to what time is like on earth.

It is both rational, and optimal to accept this gap in knowledge.

Calling the potential cause of the universe (if it has a cause) god, does nothing to explain how that cause came about, or what the nature of that cause was.

It is a disingenuous piece of intellectual evasion, in order to to cling to the idea of some sort of god, no matter how vague or illusionary. It does nothing to explain the nature of the universe, how it was created, and the position assumes things for which there is not sufficient evidence to assume.

Hell, if your going to use such a flimsy argument, why not just call love god, math god, or everything god, that way the existence of god is indisputable, except you just happened to have defined god out of any useful definition.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 09:40:26 AM by fatcat »
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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #183 on: February 27, 2009, 11:06:33 AM »

I've ben saying it for years...

"Religion is the politics of spirituality"


Spirituality can be oversimplified by:

Spirituality is the way we cope with things we can not otherwise explain. Whether we cope by saying "I don't understand and I'm cool with it" or "if I can't come up with an explanation, (insert name of omniscient omnipotent idol here)'s will...unless it makes him look bad then it was 'freewill' or (some other omniscient omnipotent idol)" or "I think it, therefore it is" or whatever else one comes up with...In a liberal* society (not Liberal society), each individual is free to choose the coping mechanism(s) they desire and no one else cares because they believe in freedom for the other person as much as for themselves.






* liberal: favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible

That sounds great and all, but you're using a non-standard definition of "spirituality," and you haven't explained why there should be a "politics" of coping with things we can't understand. 

Some people cope with things they can't understand by saying "God did it."  Those people I would say are religious.

Some people cope with things they can't understand by saying "I don't know" or "I'll find out."  There is nothing religious about that, unless you warp the definition of "religion" into something that won't be recognized by the lay believer, the clergy, or the academic. 
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #184 on: February 27, 2009, 11:18:39 AM »

I've ben saying it for years...

: favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible

That sounds great and all, but you're using a non-standard definition of "spirituality," and you haven't explained why there should be a "politics" of coping with things we can't understand. 

Some people cope with things they can't understand by saying "God did it."  Those people I would say are religious.

Some people cope with things they can't understand by saying "I don't know" or "I'll find out."  There is nothing religious about that, unless you warp the definition of "religion" into something that won't be recognized by the lay believer, the clergy, or the academic. 

Those some people are idiots. You cant lay to rest everything you dont understand on the G-d of the gaps.

A person isn't religious when they say about things they dont understand "G-d did it". One Rabbi we had who regularly came to our Yeshiva would regularly make fun of that view. Maybe christiand and muslims do that, I wouldnt know.

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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #185 on: February 27, 2009, 11:25:42 AM »

A person isn't religious when they say about things they dont understand "G-d did it". One Rabbi we had who regularly came to our Yeshiva would regularly make fun of that view. Maybe christiand and muslims do that, I wouldnt know.

I didn't say those are the only  people who are religious.  But if you attribute anything  to God, then the term "religious" describes you. 
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #186 on: February 27, 2009, 12:33:17 PM »

ALL things have a starting point, it's a logical necessity that the universe has one too.  That thing which has no starting point, that's what you call God.

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #187 on: February 27, 2009, 12:37:01 PM »

Then the Universe is God? Nice faulty reasoning there, Demosthenes. :lol:
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #188 on: February 27, 2009, 12:38:00 PM »

Then the Universe is God? Nice faulty reasoning there, Demosthenes. :lol:
That's not faulty reasoning at all.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #189 on: February 27, 2009, 12:48:12 PM »

Then the Universe is God? Nice faulty reasoning there, Demosthenes. :lol:
That's not faulty reasoning at all.

So if some quantum fluctuation was the cause of the Universe you would worship it?
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blackie

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #190 on: February 27, 2009, 12:49:16 PM »

Pantheism attributes everything to God.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #191 on: February 27, 2009, 12:50:27 PM »

Pantheism attributes everything to God.
Come one, lets not insult God then with saying he made Barak Obama. :lol:
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blackie

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #192 on: February 27, 2009, 12:56:52 PM »

Pantheism attributes everything to God.
Come one, lets not insult God then with saying he made Barak Obama. :lol:
You gotta take the good with the bad, I guess.

But saying God made something isn't right for a pantheist, because Mr. Obama is a part of God.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #193 on: February 27, 2009, 01:04:26 PM »

Therefore, Obama is God?
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blackie

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #194 on: February 27, 2009, 01:07:09 PM »

No. A small part does not equal the whole.
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