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Author Topic: Libertarianism and Religion  (Read 39145 times)

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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #165 on: February 26, 2009, 05:47:11 PM »

There are deductive logical proofs that there is a God, at least that there is a creator or initiator.

Look up the Cosmological Proof, it's one of my favorites.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #166 on: February 26, 2009, 07:39:12 PM »

The same proof can be ignored since it is not consistent with the laws of Identity and Non-Contradiction.
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fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #167 on: February 26, 2009, 08:08:55 PM »

Cosmological argument, i.e. first cause argument is bullshit on many levels.

First it assumes that the universe has a starting point. In order for the universe to have a "first cause" it needs a starting point, which we don't know if it has had or not because we can't see past the big bang.  In order for us to know the universe had a starting point, we would need to know what/when that was.

So thats the first faulty premise that this fallacy is built on. Although even assuming that the big bang is the starting point of the universe, or that there is another starting point that is known, the argument itself is internally disproving.

Guy A: "Everything that exists must have a cause. The universe must have had a creator, it can't always have been there, someone or something must have made it. That something was god/a creator being."

Guy B: "Who made/what caused the god then?"

Guy A: "God was always there, its a perfect circle / alpha and omega, or god created itself.

I've highlighted the areas where this disproves itself. To assume that everything that exists need a cause, therefore the universe has to have had a cause, cannot be used to justify god, as something needs to have caused god, and that thing would then have to have caused that, this is essentially turtles all the way down


Also the initial premise that the universe has to have had a cause is unproven, as there is no known start point for the universe. It is possible that the universe does not have a start point, until we find a start point we cannot say if it has one or not. This is not to say that the universe does or doesn't have a start point, it is merely to say that it is unknown so the idea that there must have been a first cause cannot be validated without first validating that there was a "first" to be caused.

Once a starting point of the universe has been established, it would still then need to be necessary to prove that that cause was some sort of god. Just because you already assume there is a god and it made the universe, does not mean that if the universe has a start, then there must be a god to start it, as you still need to prove that there is a god, and prove that it was the cause.

This is known as Affirming the Consequent.

   1. If A is true, then B is true.
   2. A is stated to be true.
   3. Therefore, B must be true.

If something exists, it has to have a cause.
The universe is something.
Therefore a god/creator must have been the cause.

In fact, as you can see, there is a double non sequitur. Not only is it assumed that the first cause must have been a god or creator, when it is not proven and there are other possible options, but it is assumed that the universe had a cause without demonstrating so.

Its the equivalent of finding a murder victim, and then just asserting that someone was the murderer without any evidence. Just because you believe there is a god, does not mean you can assume it as a cause without proving so.

Further reading on Non-sequitur Fallacy

The cosmological argument is similar to the ontological argument, whereby a false premise is used as proof of a logically inconsistent argument.

Most of them run like this:

   1. God is something than which nothing greater can be thought.
   2. It is greater to exist in reality and in the understanding than just in understanding.
   3. Therefore, God exists in reality

or this :

   1. Whatever I clearly and distinctly perceive to be contained in the idea of something, is true of that thing.
   2. I clearly and distinctly perceive that necessary existence is contained in the idea of God.
   3. Therefore, God exists.

Although these fallacies also use non sequitir and linguistic errors, such as suggesting that because you can think of something, it has to exist without proving it to be so.

Look forward to hearing your response Demosthenes.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 08:33:24 PM by fatcat »
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #168 on: February 26, 2009, 08:10:56 PM »

Bullshitty bullshit is bullshit bullshit. Now, bullshit bullshit, meaning your face is bullshit. This leads me to say bullshit bullshit. Which means you are bullshit. So in conclusion bullshit.
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fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #169 on: February 26, 2009, 08:31:58 PM »

Bullshitty bullshit is bullshit bullshit. Now, bullshit bullshit, meaning your face is bullshit. This leads me to say bullshit bullshit. Which means you are bullshit. So in conclusion bullshit.

Shouldn't you be out beating gays to death instead of shitting all over yourself on internet forums?
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #170 on: February 26, 2009, 08:40:14 PM »

Bullshitty bullshit is bullshit bullshit. Now, bullshit bullshit, meaning your face is bullshit. This leads me to say bullshit bullshit. Which means you are bullshit. So in conclusion bullshit.

Shouldn't you be out beating gays to death instead of shitting all over yourself on internet forums?

Are you retarded or something? You didn't get how I spent pages explaining why we couldn't do that?

You're probably too hardheaded to understand any point thats not beaten into your head with a baseball bat via morse code.


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Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

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fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #171 on: February 26, 2009, 08:47:13 PM »

Bullshitty bullshit is bullshit bullshit. Now, bullshit bullshit, meaning your face is bullshit. This leads me to say bullshit bullshit. Which means you are bullshit. So in conclusion bullshit.

Shouldn't you be out beating gays to death instead of shitting all over yourself on internet forums?

Are you retarded or something? You didn't get how I spent pages explaining why we couldn't do that?

You're probably too hardheaded to understand any point thats not beaten into your head with a baseball bat via morse code.

I've heard your lame equivocations for why you won't do the lords work before. I just assumed that since you voided your bowels into this thread we weren't doing the intelligent discussion thing, so I sent out a jibe against your insane views on morality.

"I do believe that homosexuality is wrong, and yes, it is punishable by death. I don't understand how this is an antiliberty view."

hehe, that part still makes me laugh, and the way you depersonalize execution into, "it is punishable by death", as if it wouldn't actually have to involve murdering of innocent people by other people.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 08:57:29 PM by fatcat »
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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #172 on: February 26, 2009, 09:07:17 PM »

There are deductive logical proofs that there is a God, at least that there is a creator or initiator.

Correction: There are deductive arguments  that there is a god.  And every single one of those arguments has several devastating counter-arguments facing it. 
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #173 on: February 26, 2009, 09:11:41 PM »

Primacy of Existence always works as to why God cannot be the first cause.

Considerations.

1) If God is outside of Time and Space how can God initiate any function that is Time-like and Space-like? Or how can God create without there being a basis for creation?

2) If God is first cause, how did come to be?

3) If God knows everything then why did God create the Universe as it is? (With good and evil and etc, although at the same time is an "ALL GOOD" God?)
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #174 on: February 26, 2009, 09:31:04 PM »

Did Spidey say that God somehow evolved from some sort of matter, and then went on to manipulate matter into beings?

Why not just skip the God part then, since this idea supports evolution?
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2009, 09:32:54 PM »

Did Spidey say that God somehow evolved from some sort of matter, and then went on to manipulate matter into beings?

No, Spidey said that God has always existed, is material, and manipulates other matter. 
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hellbilly

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2009, 09:36:30 PM »

Did Spidey say that God somehow evolved from some sort of matter, and then went on to manipulate matter into beings?

No, Spidey said that God has always existed, is material, and manipulates other matter. 

Aahhh.. well, can't say a lot about that..
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2009, 11:34:41 PM »

Primacy of Existence always works as to why God cannot be the first cause.

Considerations.

1) If God is outside of Time and Space how can God initiate any function that is Time-like and Space-like? Or how can God create without there being a basis for creation?

2) If God is first cause, how did come to be?

3) If God knows everything then why did God create the Universe as it is? (With good and evil and etc, although at the same time is an "ALL GOOD" God?)
That's exactly the whole point!  God is that unexplainable force that initiated the universe.  You can't explain it, but there must be something that initiated everything.  Call that force what you will, I call it God. 

Point 3 is fallacious as it relies on the assumption that this great initiator is human-like or even has feelings.  Just because you're used to all the Christians and Muslims babbling on about how God "does things for a reason" doesn't mean that the "great initiator" (or whatever the hell you'd prefer to call it) is anything like a human or even explainable in human emotions.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #178 on: February 27, 2009, 12:13:17 AM »

That's exactly the whole point!  God is that unexplainable force that initiated the universe.  You can't explain it, but there must be something that initiated everything.  Call that force what you will, I call it God. 

We can't explain it now, but that doesn't mean we won't ever.  What's the point of taking the unknown and calling it "God" instead of just being honest and saying "I don't know"?
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rabidfurby

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #179 on: February 27, 2009, 12:24:03 AM »

That's exactly the whole point!  God is that unexplainable force that initiated the universe.  You can't explain it, but there must be something that initiated everything.  Call that force what you will, I call it God. 

We can't explain it now, but that doesn't mean we won't ever.  What's the point of taking the unknown and calling it "God" instead of just being honest and saying "I don't know"?

Calling it God is easier than thinking.
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