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Author Topic: Libertarianism and Religion  (Read 39170 times)

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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #150 on: February 26, 2009, 03:22:54 PM »

As if the idea that an intelligent being can create things using natural laws is silly.


It is if that "intelligent being" has to exist outside of and prior to all of the matter being created, in violation of those very natural laws. What you describe is a fundamental contradiction. A logical impossibility.

Yeah, I agree, that is such a silly notion to think that matter can neither be created nor destroyed.  How silly to think the Creator has always existed.

Wow, you are quite the king of straw men in this thread.  Dylboz didn't say a thing about whether it's possible for something to always exist or not.

I do find it interesting that you apparently think the Creator is material, though.....

I fixed it.

Don't go back and "fix" prior comments.....it makes the conversation not make sense anymore.  It's better to just make another post saying what you want to say. 

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And yes, I do think the Creator is material.  How could an immaterial intelligence do anything?

Well, anything material has a location.  Where is the Creator?  The interactions between material things can be scientifically studied.  How did the Creator create more matter?  Animals and plants can reproduce, but they need energy to do it.  Where did the Creator get its energy?  Is the Creator organic or no?  If organic, then where did nonorganic matter come from?  If nonorganic, then where did organic matter come from? 

And as Dylboz notes, even material intelligences can only create things from previously existing material.  If the Creator is the only material thing which has always existed, then what did it use to make everything to start with? 
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fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #151 on: February 26, 2009, 03:39:09 PM »

It simply amazes me the efforts atheists go to, to convince others there is no God.  How would it improve my life to believe that there was not a Creator?  Would it make me happier, richer, or live longer?

wrong.

I'm trying to convince you not to believe in god when there isn't evidence to believe so.

Trying to make you believe there is no god is as pointless as trying to make you believe there are no pixies or sprites. Sure there might be a god, or a pixie, or a flying spaghetti monster somewhere, believing there isn't is stupid, but sure not as stupid as believing there is one when theres absolutely no evidence.


and your right, it wouldn't improve your life, unless of course you cared about whether or not what you believed in was true, and whether you cared about having good reasons for your beliefs. Being able to reason and judge reality correctly is a valuable ability. Maybe not from the sense of happyness, after all ignorance is bliss, but theres absolutely no difference between what your doing, and the people who choose to believe crystals and magnets have healing powers, and that assholes like John Edwards are actually channeling dead people.

its all part of a larger whole of your ability to think critically, and to avoid believing as many false things as possible.

if you're content to believe in things there is no evidence to believe in for stupid reasons then theres absolutely nowhere to go from here.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 03:44:09 PM by fatcat »
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Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #152 on: February 26, 2009, 03:39:51 PM »

So this Creator actually didn't create anything, then?

It depends on how you define creation I guess.  When we say someone created a car, are we saying they created the matter that was used to create the car?  Of course not.  They just manipulated matter.  But it is still a "creation".

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Because if he/she/it didn't exist prior to all matter, then it couldn't have created it, because it is part of it.

True, I do not believe God created matter.  I just believe God manipulates matter.

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If you have always existed, then decide to create something, you obviously existed prior to, and are exclusive from, that creation.

Yes, I believe God existed before earth and the Sun.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 03:42:19 PM by Spideynw »
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Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #153 on: February 26, 2009, 03:41:55 PM »


And as Dylboz notes, even material intelligences can only create things from previously existing material.  If the Creator is the only material thing which has always existed, then what did it use to make everything to start with? 

I did not say that the Creator is the only material thing which has always existed.  All matter has always existed.
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fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #154 on: February 26, 2009, 03:45:12 PM »

I just believe God manipulates matter.

why?
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I believe God existed before earth and the Sun.

why?

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All matter has always existed.

How do you know this? How long does this "always" go back? What was existence like before god made the universe as it is now?
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Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #155 on: February 26, 2009, 03:51:28 PM »

if you're content to believe in things there is no evidence to believe in for stupid reasons then theres absolutely nowhere to go from here.


Calling my reasons stupid is awfully close to calling me stupid.  I agree there is nowhere to go from here.  Your condescending attitude has completely manifested itself. 
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Dylboz

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #156 on: February 26, 2009, 03:51:35 PM »

So then, this "Creator" simply assembled stuff that was already there, that, like him, was material that already and had always existed? Well, then, that's not "Creation" in the sense of a God creating the universe, that's a craftsman building something with raw materials, and it doesn't solve any problems or answer any questions about the origins of matter or life. It's a meaningless assertion in a lot of ways, but it has some interesting implications, since if the "Creator" is a physical being within this universe and bound by its natural laws, then it is testable, verifiable and discoverable. We can shake hands with it, assuming it has hands, and ask it why it made us.
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Religion is metaphysical statism. I will be ruled by no man on earth, nor by any god in heaven.

Please check out my blog!
Dylboznia

fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #157 on: February 26, 2009, 03:58:53 PM »

if you're content to believe in things there is no evidence to believe in for stupid reasons then theres absolutely nowhere to go from here.


Calling my reasons stupid is awfully close to calling me stupid.  I agree there is nowhere to go from here.  Your condescending attitude has completely manifested itself. 

If you believe in something there is no evidence for then its a stupid belief. You could try and prove me how its not a stupid belief, and what evidence you have for your beliefs, but since your beliefs are based on a personal preference and not deductive logical, then your not going to do this.

People are perfectly capable of being rational in one area of life, and irrational in the other. I have not questioned your moral character, or your intelligent, merely i have remarked that your beliefs are illfounded and without merit. You have done little to nothing to actually prove these ideas above asserting that they are true.

You have done nothing but assert your beliefs and engage in fallacy. God was just always there. How do you know this? you have not attempted to explain in any way.

I have gone into great detail to name and analyze the fallacy and flawed thinking you have engaged in. I have never tried to shut down the debate, and I have tried many different ways to challenge what I believe are your faulty beliefs.

If me calling a spade a spade offends you, tough. I do not buy into the idea that it is some mark of respect to fake that I believe your beliefs have any validity.

If you were saying the same things about Allah, or Raelians, or pixies, I would be acting in the same way.

People can be plenty condescending in conversation. It is possible that I am wrong. It is also possible that you are wrong, however, I am the only one actually trying to explain why I think I am right and why you are wrong, you are happy to engage in evasion and mental masturbation, and completely avoid addressing my criticism on a rational basis.

I have had similar discussions with other religious minded people on this board. One mention of a belief being stupid or ill founded will completely end the discussion, even though the same people will be happy to decry the stupidity of certain political beliefs in the same day.

I would much rather you call my ideas stupid and try to prove it than to completely shun reasoned discourse in the name of politeness. I have been relatively polite, and I think its not too egregious that I have once mentioned the beliefs as being stupid. I have not called you a dumbass or a retard, and I would think its obvious that I think the belief is stupid, otherwise I would believe it to no?

So you can either be oversensitive and stop talking now, or you can take a look at my last post and tell me why im incorrect.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 04:09:59 PM by fatcat »
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blackie

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #158 on: February 26, 2009, 04:10:29 PM »

If you believe in something there is no evidence for then its a stupid belief.
Is there any evidence that rights exist?
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Dylboz

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #159 on: February 26, 2009, 04:15:17 PM »

I think many people here have conceded that rights do not exist outside people's heads. They are useful concepts that facilitate peaceful interaction and coexistence, but there is no unspoiled outback wilderness where one can go to observe "rights" frolicking in their natural environment. So, no, rights don't exist in any corporeal sense.
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Religion is metaphysical statism. I will be ruled by no man on earth, nor by any god in heaven.

Please check out my blog!
Dylboznia

Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #160 on: February 26, 2009, 04:25:11 PM »


If you believe in something there is no evidence for then its a stupid belief.

I have already given you my reasoning for why I believe there is a Creator, and why I believe there is evidence.  I can only assume from your comments that you think evidence is the same as proof.  It is not.
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Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #161 on: February 26, 2009, 04:27:01 PM »

but there is no unspoiled outback wilderness where one can go to observe "rights" frolicking in their natural environment.

LOL.  This description conjures up funny images.
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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #162 on: February 26, 2009, 04:42:14 PM »


And as Dylboz notes, even material intelligences can only create things from previously existing material.  If the Creator is the only material thing which has always existed, then what did it use to make everything to start with? 

I did not say that the Creator is the only material thing which has always existed.  All matter has always existed.

Err....what is the point of a Creator, then?  Are you unable to believe that things are the way they are just because of the natural forces of the universe? 
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Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #163 on: February 26, 2009, 04:51:17 PM »


And as Dylboz notes, even material intelligences can only create things from previously existing material.  If the Creator is the only material thing which has always existed, then what did it use to make everything to start with? 

I did not say that the Creator is the only material thing which has always existed.  All matter has always existed.

Err....what is the point of a Creator, then?


Like I already said, I am assuming you missed the post, to manipulate matter.

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  Are you unable to believe that things are the way they are just because of the natural forces of the universe? 

Obviously the answer is yes, I am unable to believe that.
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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #164 on: February 26, 2009, 05:20:26 PM »

Are you unable to believe that things are the way they are just because of the natural forces of the universe? 
Obviously the answer is yes, I am unable to believe that.

Okay, why? As amazing as the things that shape the world and the universe are-- gravity, evolution, photosynthesis, plate tectonics, black holes, dwarf stars, and so on-- it sure seems like you're just making things more complicated rather than less by inserting some mysterious "Creator" on top of everything else. 
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