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Author Topic: Libertarianism and Religion  (Read 39161 times)

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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2009, 12:54:23 PM »

I can't believe I'm letting you pick a fight w/ me over evidence only available in a book neither of us finds reliable about the likely opinions of guy that may or may not have ever existed

I'm "picking a fight" with you?  Umm, okay.

I beg head cold.  You're guilty of straw men.  Let's call the whole thing off. 
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Ecolitan

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2009, 12:57:04 PM »

I win  :P

I hope you get to feeling better. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 01:00:54 PM by Ecolitan »
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jeffersonish

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2009, 10:22:21 PM »


Jesus did specifically say that thing about throwing stones.  So he specifically said not to hurt people even if they do things you don't like.

Are you sure he said that? Or did you just read it somewhere?

Prophecy in Daniel indicates that the messiah they were to expect was militant.
Maybe they provided "history" about Jesus indicating he was a pacifist.
Maybe the authors of the gospels were just trying to turn a bunch of militant Jews (Sicarii) into passive Jews.
I mean, it is possible, right?

btw, I always feel uncomfortable when I say or write, "Jews" because although there is nothing incorrect or demeaning about the word, but it has been said so many times with inflection indicating it is an insult, I have a gut reaction to it. I certainly don't mean to cast such a characterization on an entire race or religious group. I'll reserve that for individuals.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2009, 11:40:46 PM »


Jesus did specifically say that thing about throwing stones.  So he specifically said not to hurt people even if they do things you don't like.

Are you sure he said that? Or did you just read it somewhere?

Prophecy in Daniel indicates that the messiah they were to expect was militant.
Maybe they provided "history" about Jesus indicating he was a pacifist.
Maybe the authors of the gospels were just trying to turn a bunch of militant Jews (Sicarii) into passive Jews.
I mean, it is possible, right?

btw, I always feel uncomfortable when I say or write, "Jews" because although there is nothing incorrect or demeaning about the word, but it has been said so many times with inflection indicating it is an insult, I have a gut reaction to it. I certainly don't mean to cast such a characterization on an entire race or religious group. I'll reserve that for individuals.
Hey I've wondered about that too.  The whole pacifism thing I think is where Jesus completely bastardized his own religion (I don't believe it was him who did most of these things, I believe it was actually the writers of the "gospel" who did), you're not supposed to turn the other cheek so you can be hit again on the other side, you're supposed to be strong and defend yourself.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
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jeffersonish

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #109 on: February 21, 2009, 02:34:15 AM »


Jesus did specifically say that thing about throwing stones.  So he specifically said not to hurt people even if they do things you don't like.

Are you sure he said that? Or did you just read it somewhere?

Prophecy in Daniel indicates that the messiah they were to expect was militant.
Maybe they provided "history" about Jesus indicating he was a pacifist.
Maybe the authors of the gospels were just trying to turn a bunch of militant Jews (Sicarii) into passive Jews.
I mean, it is possible, right?

btw, I always feel uncomfortable when I say or write, "Jews" because although there is nothing incorrect or demeaning about the word, but it has been said so many times with inflection indicating it is an insult, I have a gut reaction to it. I certainly don't mean to cast such a characterization on an entire race or religious group. I'll reserve that for individuals.
Hey I've wondered about that too.  The whole pacifism thing I think is where Jesus completely bastardized his own religion (I don't believe it was him who did most of these things, I believe it was actually the writers of the "gospel" who did), you're not supposed to turn the other cheek so you can be hit again on the other side, you're supposed to be strong and defend yourself.

For one compelling theory about the authors of the gospels, read Joseph Atwill's "Caesar's Messiah." The title should give you a clue as to who he thinks might have written them. (rhymes with Lomans). There are several passages in the gospels that are Rome-friendly. Going the extra mile refers to a law that if a Roman soldier asked a citizen for help carrying a load, the citizen was only required to carry it one mile. Jesus was ever so helpful supporting the Roman thugs by telling his followers to go the extra mile. Turning the other cheek as you mentioned is another. Giving unto Caesar what is Caesar's is another, as if those things really were Caesar's. This would be the equivalent of being told the leaders of the FSP wanted all the members to quit making things so difficult for government thugs and do anything they ask. If Atwill is correct, the plan far exceeded the conspirators' wildest dreams.
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notsosly

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #110 on: February 21, 2009, 11:31:56 AM »

Hhrrmm.... There you all go again, batting around the pros and cons of a specific moral question while studiously avoiding its impact on the big picture of liberty vs. slavery.... Sometimes I think the bunch of you are just mole-trolls trying to muddy the waters here with a lot of nonsense about your conflicting viewpoints. I've asked before, and I'll ask again; in the face of objective, TRUE reality, who cares what any of you or anyone else THINKS about these things....? When the truth is already obvious, don't waste time blathering about how what you think goes against it.... Since it is objective truth your job as a grownup is to ACCEPT it. Do you also spend time thinking about how you don't agree with the laws of gravity?? WHO CARES?? They are what they are, NOT what you think!! Same with this... Its no one's fault, it just IS....

Once again, its simple... The stateists co-opted religion shortly after its invention to use as a tool to wield power over those weak enough to ignore their own rational judgement in favor of an irrational collective 'commanded by god' to behave in certain ways and to aggress against those 'outside the fold'... It wasn't too hard to exploit that weakness since at the time you didn't have to be very weak to become desparate. Things were bad back then. That was then, this is now. It now takes a pretty weak mind to junk the vast amount of evidence against the validity of most religions these days... Free peoples' judgement to be fearful of such weak minds is certainly justified... The unscrupulous seem to be able to smell 'em a mile away, and they have an absolute genius for getting these weak minds to support them against the natural rights of the rest of us.

Its not a moral question in the end, its just good societal hygene to voluntarily question and object to any and all collective behavior based on anything other than voluntary association for mutual benefit based on real life positive results (i.e., THE MARKET). Adding something else based on self-validating fairy tales can't just be ignored without endangering the natural rights of all.

I'm not saying the religious should ever be aggressed against, of course. I'm pointing out that since their beliefs may cause them to aggress against us we are responsible to a. keep that danger from being forgotten and b. try our best to bring as many 'out of the fold' as we can before the power seekers can use them to aggress against us.

Now, for those of you who are sincere in your efforts to do these things, you might want to just copy\paste the above in response to these phony arguments from now on...  It will allow you to avoid falling into the trap of missing the forest for the trees they keep trying to run us into.

You're welcome, no extra charge.
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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #111 on: February 21, 2009, 12:44:02 PM »

Hhrrmm.... There you all go again, batting around the pros and cons of a specific moral question while studiously avoiding its impact on the big picture of liberty vs. slavery....You're welcome, no extra charge.

Do try and get over yourself. 
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notsosly

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2009, 06:54:36 AM »

Hhrrmm.... There you all go again, batting around the pros and cons of a specific moral question while studiously avoiding its impact on the big picture of liberty vs. slavery....You're welcome, no extra charge.

Do try and get over yourself. 

Just being a little douchebaggish to make a point....  Really, you're one of the folks on this board who is smart and gets it.  Don't you ever feel the desire to start pushing the discussion in a more productive direction? I tend to be absent from here for long stretches just because there's so much mindless jabber and endless repetition to crawl through to find something good to read. Its rough, and I know you get annoyed too.... I'm just saying, this IS our board, no one is controlling the content.... Its a perfect place to demonstrate the power of free exchange to produce better ideas. Why not use it for that? You've put too much intelligent stuff out here to try to make me believe you can't help pull the discussion up a notch or two.... Secretly, you know you want to!
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Rillion

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2009, 09:29:19 AM »

Hhrrmm.... There you all go again, batting around the pros and cons of a specific moral question while studiously avoiding its impact on the big picture of liberty vs. slavery....You're welcome, no extra charge.

Do try and get over yourself. 

Just being a little douchebaggish to make a point....  Really, you're one of the folks on this board who is smart and gets it.  Don't you ever feel the desire to start pushing the discussion in a more productive direction? I tend to be absent from here for long stretches just because there's so much mindless jabber and endless repetition to crawl through to find something good to read. Its rough, and I know you get annoyed too.... I'm just saying, this IS our board, no one is controlling the content.... Its a perfect place to demonstrate the power of free exchange to produce better ideas. Why not use it for that? You've put too much intelligent stuff out here to try to make me believe you can't help pull the discussion up a notch or two.... Secretly, you know you want to!

Now why would I want to go and make being here feel like work?   If my job were Professional Discussion Pusher, then I would be happy to do it.  But as it stands, I prefer to enjoy myself here.  That means posting carefully thought-out responses when the mood compels me, and goofing around when it doesn't.   Besides, when I do  post a carefully considered commentary on a subject, more often than not most people pass it by completely because they don't want to tackle anything that takes a while to read.  And that's not a slam against them, because they're just here to enjoy themselves too. 

As for "jabber and endless repetition".....every point you just made in your lengthier post above has already been made on this forum whenever the topic of religion comes up.  That doesn't make it mindless, but it is at least repetitive.   You can't really blame people for not wanting to just reiterate the same points over and over, no matter how good or relevant those points may be.  And in my experience, berating people for not talking about what you want to discuss is not a very effective way to get them to do it. 
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jeffersonish

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2009, 02:29:01 PM »

I'm pointing out that since their beliefs may cause them to aggress against us we are responsible to a. keep that danger from being forgotten and b. try our best to bring as many 'out of the fold' as we can before the power seekers can use them to aggress against us.
That is why I am ...
  • active in my local chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
  • a committee member of a large annual public Freethought Day event aimed at spreading the ideas of rational thought and secularism.
  • the key organizer of a now annual Flying Spaghetti Monster Pastover event.
  • debating online via blogs and forums pointing things out like snakes can't talk. This includes hostile venues like townhall.com
  • starting the Secular Libertarian Caucus within the LP
  • a member of a local atheist meetup group
  • a member of Michael Newdow's FACTS church

I also work to bring non-believers toward an understanding of free-market economics. I created a presentation entitled "In Defense of Libertarian Humanism" which I presented to my local chapter of the American Humanist Association. Most of the members there are slightly to the right of Marx while others have varying degrees of libertarianism. The point here is, the AHA follows the guidelines of the Humanist Manifesto III. The manifesto details all the good things we want to see done in society. Nowhere does it say the government should be our agent in such matters. I simply point out that using the government to achieve our goals in immoral -- that private efforts to accomplish our goals will not only be more moral, but more effective.

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Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2009, 06:15:30 PM »

I do not think religious beliefs are necessarily indicative of political beliefs.  One may believe that premarital sex is evil, and also believe that it should be a religious matter.  One may also believe that there is no God, and think that Socialism is the best political philosophy.

I find atheists to be just as close minded, if not more so, than religious fanatics when it comes to both religion and politics.

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Dylboz

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2009, 07:00:29 PM »

I ask you, as an atheist, why should I be "open minded" about topics of a religious nature? Would you expect a vegan to listen with rapt attention as you recount your last trip to Tex's Brisket n' Beef Ribs BBQ Pit or a detailed description of your recipe for chicken a la king? I have thought about it a great deal, reflected on my personal experiences with the devout and in church, as well as having read the fairy tale books, and I've rejected the concept altogether. So, I am no longer interested in discussing the matter as if it were at all possible that some nasty sky monster had his son impaled by Romans for my benefit 2000 years ago. If that's "close minded [sic]," then so be it. Should I open my mind to Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, too? How about perpetual motion or phlogiston? One should not be praised for being "open minded" toward bollocks.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 07:27:05 PM by Dylboz »
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2009, 07:10:41 PM »

I ask you, as an atheist, why should I be "open minded" about topics of a religious nature? Would you expect a vegan to listen with rapt attention as you recount your last trip to Tex's Brisket n' Beef Ribs BBQ Pit a detailed description of your recipe for chicken a la king? I have thought about it a great deal, reflected on my personal experiences with the devout and in church, as well as having read the fairy tale books, and I've rejected the concept altogether. So, I am no longer interested in discussing the matter as if it were at all possible that some nasty sky monster had his son impaled by Romans for my benefit 2000 years ago. If that's "close minded [sic]," then so be it. Should I open my mind to Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, too? How about perpetual motion or phlogiston? One should not be praised for being "open minded" toward bollocks.

I have encountered very few religious folks who were willing to be "open minded" about atheism.

"Hi. I'm a Christian, and you must respect my beliefs."

"Hello. I'm an atheist."

"Get ye hence, oh spawn of Satan!"
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Spideynw

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2009, 07:30:21 PM »

I ask you, as an atheist, why should I be "open minded" about topics of a religious nature? Would you expect a vegan to listen with rapt attention as you recount your last trip to Tex's Brisket n' Beef Ribs BBQ Pit or a detailed description of your recipe for chicken a la king? I have thought about it a great deal, reflected on my personal experiences with the devout and in church, as well as having read the fairy tale books, and I've rejected the concept altogether. So, I am no longer interested in discussing the matter as if it were at all possible that some nasty sky monster had his son impaled by Romans for my benefit 2000 years ago. If that's "close minded [sic]," then so be it. Should I open my mind to Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, too? How about perpetual motion or phlogiston? One should not be praised for being "open minded" toward bollocks.

I should say I find atheists to be just as close minded when discussing the idea that an intelligent being created life as religious people are about discussing the validity of their religion.
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fatcat

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2009, 08:04:45 PM »

I should say I find atheists to be just as close minded when discussing the idea that an intelligent being created life as religious people are about discussing the validity of their religion.

I'm plenty open minded.

Heres an open invitation to anyone who has a religious belief on this board. Tell me what it is, and why you believe it to be true, and I will evaluate it and tell you whether I agree, and the reasons why I do or don't agree.

And lets watch this invitation not get taken up, because I'm being too "hostile" or not "respectful" enough. Its never that your not reasonable enough, its just you won't feign respect for faulty beliefs

Theres not a single religion that isn't designed to play on peoples fears and desires, therefore it is not a field in which fact or reason play prominent roles, rather the engagement of delusionary and dissonant thought patterns to confirm a bias.

i.e. what reasons can i give myself that death does not equal non-existance, even though the most rational explanation of death is it is exactly what non existence is like before birth.

The "you can't prove god doesn't exist so its irrational not to believe" is a perfect example of these bias confirmations.

The same reasoning can be applied equally to all gods. In fact, to believe in one god with that logic, you must dismiss the existence of all other deities, as all gods are equally unprovable, yet this is also glossed over, by trying to accept the idea that all religions are talking about the same kind of "universal force", or ridiculing minor religions such as scientologist because they don't have the years of legitimacy and really old books to support the same dud logic.

I've sidetracked, and given ample opportunity to ignore or reject my invitation for debate, by being frank about my opinion, however, this demonstrates my point further. There is no reason for 2 parties to agree at the start of a debate, yet in discussions of religion, it is usually a prerequisite to discussion that you accept there is some validity in the position before any actual discussion takes place

This works like in no other field. Christian libertarians here will debate liberty perfectly will with rabid socialists who constantly belittle and ridicule libertarian thought, but when it comes to religion they will shy away or ignore completely any discussion that goes in a direction that is not comfortable to them.

I believe this to be because of the grounding of the two ideas. Libertarianism is almost always a belief that you were not raised to believe, and it involves rational thinking to dismiss spoonfed socialism or conservatism, so the idea of logical challenges to libertarian beliefs is not a threat, but a welcome challenge, and opportunity to prove your belief to yourself and others.

Religions are near universally accepted to be true before people have thought about whether they are true or not (i.e. at a young age people are told a religion is correct and they accept it is with very little thought). A belief based on blind acceptance has almost the opposite effects of one based on rational inquiry. People will go to great lengths to avoid discussion, and to push out concepts of logic and empirical evidence, claiming that their beliefs lie in a "spiritual realm" or merely "cannot be explained by science". This also explains the prevalent attitude that you should just accept someones religious belief, if its what they want to believe in. This doctrine of acceptance also works as a handy buffer from other religions. Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc don't have to worry about pointing out the flaws in each others belief systems if they maintain the attitude that religion doesn't need to be proved to anyone, even yourself, and that "there are infinite ways to christ/allah/vishnu" etc
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