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Author Topic: Libertarianism and Religion  (Read 39152 times)

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NHArticleTen

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2009, 12:18:39 PM »

And now for my serious take... I don't think libertarianism and religion are mutually exclusive, but I do think many particular religious beliefs are incompatible to one degree or another. If you think your religious beliefs should be enforced through force, you are not libertarian - your liberty philosophy has a blind spot. I think that is why I have found a shockingly (to me at first anyway) number of atheists in the LP. I have been to 2 state conventions and 1 national. A notable exception would be most of the people who voted for Bob Barr to be the LP nominee, mostly from Southern states. (I voted for Mary Ruwart right up to the last ballot despite the outlandish child molestation mudslinging campaign.)

I even find many of the people attached to the Ron Paul campaign to be unlibertarian because of this blind spot if you will. I was a huge Ron Paul supporter and still am given he is light years closer to true libertarianism than his closest Congressional member rival. I disagree with him on abortion, and my big beef with him there is his disrespect for his own condemnation of commerce clause abuse when he voted for the partial birth abortion ban. But that's a constitutional issue, not libertarianism per se. When it comes to immigration, I think he could be more libertarian even considering the pragmatism of border protection until we get rid of the welfare state.

But after the primary was decided, it seemed those who hung onto the C4L/Ron Paul movement around here anyway were more John Birch and Constitution Party than libertarian. They believe in God, Country and the Pledge of Allegiance in that order. They don't mind exercising a little uninitiated force when someone shows disrespect for their guy in the sky or the star spangled banner. I find that mindset disgusting. They aren't content to let gay people be equal citizens and they usually have a hard time with legalizing drugs, especially the non-pot variety.

I've had more than one person noting my atheist and libertarian viewpoints say something like, "You just don't like anyone else telling you what to do." and I would say they are very right about that.

well said

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NHArticleTen

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2009, 12:32:03 PM »


guy in the sky is supposed to be all-knowing...which would mean that guy in the sky knows BEFORE you are created...whether or not you are going to heaven or hell...

sounds pretty fucked up to me that I would create a child only to pour gasoline on it and set it on fire for eternity...

merciful my fucking ass...

all bow before the guy in the sky with the gasoline and matches...that's ready, willing, and able to set your ass on fire if you don't play UNO just so...

onward christian soldiers...and all that bullshit...

you and your guy in the sky can go find a deserted island to run your supertanker full of gasoline into...

just keep that shit totally to yourself and your fellow gasoline-and-matches guy in the sky worshipers...

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Euler

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2009, 01:46:13 PM »

i personally apologize for some of the harsh Christian people that yall have talked to. But here i must say one thing. Liberty is good. License isnt. This is why i say this; you cant just do what you want to do and not affect anyone else. But i understand that you have a harsh view of us Christians, and possibly even Jesus. Now as far ive found and studied, Jesus operated off of two central truths: love and truth. If you love someone you will tell them the truth. If you tell the truth to someone that shows that you love them.
Now also truth is truth. no matter what you want it to be. Its not relative. 2+2=4 it doesnt equal 5 no matter how much you want it to. also you cant take a two way drive down a one way street; if you do then you will have a crash. Now, as far as the hurting people thing. You cannot just do whatever you like even if you do not think you are not hurting anyone. The law is the law and most logical laws are meant to protect you not hurt you.
Thats my two blurbs. By the way i am Eric Lee but i am a conservative Christian. I am extremely accepting of other people, but i do not agree with what they do; such as what my Savior Jesus calls sexual immorality. This includes homosexuality. I WANT TO MAKE IT PERFECTLY CLEAR; I DO NOT HATE HOMOSEXUALS OR ANY PEOPLE FOR ANY REASONS. Not agreeing with the behavior of someone and standing up for what is right and morally responsible is not hate. It is however free speech and not hate speech. No i do not agree with the lifestyle, but i still love the person. Please understand i mean no bigotry or harm in saying this.
By the way, i HATE religion! What real Christians have is relationships with God thru Jesus Christ. Not Religion. Real Relationship.
Jesus love be with you,
Eric Lee 

This is very well said.  As a corollary, there is an assumption that libertarians are socially liberal, libertines or hedonists.  Some are, most are not.  Libertarians are socially tolerant.  Tolerance does not imply approval.  The Mises Institute folks are culturally conservative while the pseudo-libertarians at Reason and people on the BBS are more culturally "liberal".  I.E., they're into porn, tattoos, drugs, etc.  I would venture that most real libertarians are culturally moderate.  For example, they don't hate gays but probably think its gross.  They wouldn't want their kids to get into porn or prostitution although they don't think it should be a crime.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2009, 02:30:12 PM »

As a corollary, there is an assumption that libertarians are socially liberal, libertines or hedonists.
Giles is that you? :lol:

Quote
The Mises Institute folks are culturally conservative while the pseudo-libertarians at Reason and people on the BBS are more culturally "liberal".  I.E., they're into porn, tattoos, drugs, etc.  I would venture that most real libertarians are culturally moderate.
Bull...shit. Unless you know everyone that works under Lew Rockwell you cannot state that everyone of them is a social conservative. Hoppe excluded, of course, then again that fucktard should be evicted from Earth, imho.

Quote
For example, they don't hate gays but probably think its gross.  They wouldn't want their kids to get into porn or prostitution although they don't think it should be a crime.

Good for you, but will you accept the reality that there is no consistent moral theory that can both support libertarianism and support traditional conservative values. Otherwise, you wind up with a society that's schizophrenic?
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jeffersonish

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2009, 08:42:02 PM »

i personally apologize for some of the harsh Christian people that yall have talked to. But here i must say one thing. Liberty is good. License isnt. This is why i say this; you cant just do what you want to do and not affect anyone else. But i understand that you have a harsh view of us Christians, and possibly even Jesus. Now as far ive found and studied, Jesus operated off of two central truths: love and truth. If you love someone you will tell them the truth. If you tell the truth to someone that shows that you love them.
Now also truth is truth. no matter what you want it to be. Its not relative. 2+2=4 it doesnt equal 5 no matter how much you want it to. also you cant take a two way drive down a one way street; if you do then you will have a crash. Now, as far as the hurting people thing. You cannot just do whatever you like even if you do not think you are not hurting anyone. The law is the law and most logical laws are meant to protect you not hurt you.
Thats my two blurbs. By the way i am Eric Lee but i am a conservative Christian. I am extremely accepting of other people, but i do not agree with what they do; such as what my Savior Jesus calls sexual immorality. This includes homosexuality. I WANT TO MAKE IT PERFECTLY CLEAR; I DO NOT HATE HOMOSEXUALS OR ANY PEOPLE FOR ANY REASONS. Not agreeing with the behavior of someone and standing up for what is right and morally responsible is not hate. It is however free speech and not hate speech. No i do not agree with the lifestyle, but i still love the person. Please understand i mean no bigotry or harm in saying this.
By the way, i HATE religion! What real Christians have is relationships with God thru Jesus Christ. Not Religion. Real Relationship.
Jesus love be with you,
Eric Lee 

This is very well said.  As a corollary, there is an assumption that libertarians are socially liberal, libertines or hedonists.  Some are, most are not.  Libertarians are socially tolerant.  Tolerance does not imply approval.  The Mises Institute folks are culturally conservative while the pseudo-libertarians at Reason and people on the BBS are more culturally "liberal".  I.E., they're into porn, tattoos, drugs, etc.  I would venture that most real libertarians are culturally moderate.  For example, they don't hate gays but probably think its gross.  They wouldn't want their kids to get into porn or prostitution although they don't think it should be a crime.

I have to admit I fall asleep 2 minutes after getting to FEE or Mises usually, so I'll take your word on the culturally conservative observation. I would like to know however how you know what each of them are into. Is it because they talk and speak like Wall Street types? Veronica Monet could probably dispel that myth. Or is it because they say they aren't into those things. Or, and I doubt this, is it because they write opinion papers advocating the use of force to keep those things in check?
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Euler

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2009, 11:52:55 PM »

Lew Rockwell and Tom Woods are Catholics, I believe.  The late Murray Rothbard was a culturally conservative atheist.  Karen DeCoster is a self-described paleolibertarian.  That term came about as a way to for libertarians to distinguish themselves from what they viewed as fake libertarians at Reason and inside the Beltway.  Laurance Vance is a conservative, in the non-political sense, Christian.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2009, 12:56:20 AM »

Lew Rockwell and Tom Woods are Catholics, I believe.  The late Murray Rothbard was a culturally conservative atheist.  Karen DeCoster is a self-described paleolibertarian.
Yet they don't propose to change the culture of the world, which makes them very much 'liberal' in their religious sects (Catholics are very much pro-government in the vast majority of cases...).

Quote
That term came about as a way to for libertarians to distinguish themselves from what they viewed as fake libertarians at Reason and inside the Beltway.
Ah, you are Giles from the Mises Institute Forum, then, because Giles harps on Reason like the majority of the fagberts that seem to think that anyone that's socially liberal cannot be a libertarian (pro-tip: social liberalism and political/ethical liberalism are corollaries).

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...Another dipshit referenced but my point was never refuted...

Okay, let me explain my point again: where in your philosophies is possible to support a Judaic/Christian/Islamic faith is possible to validate the concept of universal negative rights? It's not very hard to answer (hint, there is no justification of rights in religious faith of any kind). Now, fucking answer it and stop dodging like a coward.
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hellbilly

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2009, 02:46:40 AM »

I don't know if it's the Holy Spirit working through these guys or what, but I'm feeling some sort of change coming over me.
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Euler

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2009, 07:43:30 AM »

I'm not Giles.  I gave up on Reason a long time ago.  They didn't come out against the 1st Gulf War.  The capper was when then editor Virginia Postrel was promoting Steve Forbes as some kind of libertarian.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2009, 02:21:35 AM »

dominant system of morals.

Which should lead one to desire the discovery of a theory of objective morality. The rights derived from it would be valid, so long as the theory behind it is something more than an opinion, which it would be, being objective and all.


I agree, which is why I'm a big fan of Rand.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2009, 02:29:19 AM »

God only exists on Friday. Satan on Monday.

Zeus and Thor split up the rest of the time. Eris and J. R. Bob Dobbs play backup in case Zeus and Thor are busy turning into interesting things to have sex with, or smashing shit.

Buddah doesn't exist at all, and he wouldn't want it any other way.

I am right and everyone else is doomed to eternal torment. Now please, join my religion and SEND ME MONEY.

I would except I know you're wrong about God and Satan... They're the same dude and therefore have to exist on the same day. I call schism from the dualists.


nope they arent. God is God and He created Lucifer. Who became the Accuser (Satan). And rebelled against mighty God. (the Dragon)


Nope, Satan isn't Lucifer. You need to read Job again, he never rebels at any time. Only Christians and proto-Christians invented Lucifer. Judaism doesn't operate under the same dualistic intentions, either, so Christianity doesn't even have a theological leg to stand on when considering just that fact alone.
Yup.  I think more hardcore christians need to work a bit more on their study of the old testament.    No offence to the Christians out there because many of them are great folks, its just that I see worshipping Jesus as a bit too close to idolatry.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2009, 02:32:49 AM »

Okay, let me explain my point again: where in your philosophies is possible to support a Judaic/Christian/Islamic faith is possible to validate the concept of universal negative rights? It's not very hard to answer (hint, there is no justification of rights in religious faith of any kind). Now, fucking answer it and stop dodging like a coward.
I'm confused.  Can you rephrase this?
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

ericlee29

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2009, 08:57:14 PM »


guy in the sky is supposed to be all-knowing...which would mean that guy in the sky knows BEFORE you are created...whether or not you are going to heaven or hell...

sounds pretty fucked up to me that I would create a child only to pour gasoline on it and set it on fire for eternity...

merciful my fucking ass...

all bow before the guy in the sky with the gasoline and matches...that's ready, willing, and able to set your ass on fire if you don't play UNO just so...

onward christian soldiers...and all that bullshit...

you and your guy in the sky can go find a deserted island to run your supertanker full of gasoline into...

just keep that shit totally to yourself and your fellow gasoline-and-matches guy in the sky worshipers...




Well to answer your question, let me clear up a few errors on your part...................
1. Nobody is made to choose God or Satan, God cannot make us choose Him and He cannot make us choose Satan. We choose it, it is called FREEWILL.
2. When you choose yourself, your enjoyment of life more than your purpose in life (to make a positive impact in other peoples lives and become like Jesus in that impact),
you choose selfishness and hedonism more than selflessness, the pursuit of holiness, and choosing to know and do what you know is right and wrong; but have seared your consceince because you dont want to face that reality of being held accountable for your actions; by God, and mankind.
3. God chose to send Jesus down from Heaven, and use Him as your payment for sin; or the fact that no man or woman ever could measure up to moral perfection that God requires so Jesus was that perfection made manifest thru His life on earth.
4. When it comes to Jesus you have these 4 choices as to what you choose to accept about the truth of Jesus Christ's words
a. Jesus was a liar
b. Jesus was crazy
c. Jesus was a good teacher or prophet
d. Jesus was God the Son (Immanuel)"God with Us" and died willingly and rose again to take our place for our sin that we chose to commit, and defeat the sting of death once and for all all for all those who love, are in love with (agape) and trust as both Lord and Savior.
if you have any questions at all i would be glad to go over these truths with you, my email is Hispainismygain@yahoo.com

God's love be with you,
Eric Lee
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2009, 09:54:10 PM »

I disagree with all except 1) and 4)b)


EDIT:

PS: I do not believe in Satan
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

hellbilly

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2009, 09:54:47 PM »

Well to answer your question, let me clear up a few errors on your part...................
1. Nobody is made to choose God or Satan, God cannot make us choose Him and He cannot make us choose Satan. We choose it, it is called FREEWILL.
2. When you choose yourself, your enjoyment of life more than your purpose in life (to make a positive impact in other peoples lives and become like Jesus in that impact),
you choose selfishness and hedonism more than selflessness, the pursuit of holiness, and choosing to know and do what you know is right and wrong; but have seared your consceince because you dont want to face that reality of being held accountable for your actions; by God, and mankind.
3. God chose to send Jesus down from Heaven, and use Him as your payment for sin; or the fact that no man or woman ever could measure up to moral perfection that God requires so Jesus was that perfection made manifest thru His life on earth.
4. When it comes to Jesus you have these 4 choices as to what you choose to accept about the truth of Jesus Christ's words
a. Jesus was a liar
b. Jesus was crazy
c. Jesus was a good teacher or prophet
d. Jesus was God the Son (Immanuel)"God with Us" and died willingly and rose again to take our place for our sin that we chose to commit, and defeat the sting of death once and for all all for all those who love, are in love with (agape) and trust as both Lord and Savior.
if you have any questions at all i would be glad to go over these truths with you, my email is Hispainismygain@yahoo.com

God's love be with you,
Eric Lee

As long as people cling to these....

ah nevermind. :(
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