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Author Topic: Libertarianism and Religion  (Read 36222 times)

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Euler

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Libertarianism and Religion
« on: February 12, 2009, 09:03:14 AM »

There seems to be a misconception about what libertarianism is and isn't.  Libertarianism is only a political philosophy.  For example, it doesn't inform us about what religion, if any, is correct.  Ian, and to a lesser extent Mark, seem to muddy this issue.  Ian is definitely anti-Christian (not the AntiChrist) and that's fine.  I, myself, am not a Christian although I wouldn't characterize myself as anti-Christian.  I just wish that when he talks about religion that he would make the point that these are his personal, cultural views and not political views.  A new listener may think he is one of those 'liberal" types who wants to use the state against religion.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2009, 11:51:41 AM »

The problem is that religion is incompatible with rational philosophies which have spawned the majority of libertarian political theories to date. Thus, the schism between the religious and the non-religious libertarians is one that is far older than the current wave of atheistic tendencies.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 11:56:20 AM by Brede the Androgyne »
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NHArticleTen

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2009, 12:38:30 PM »


religion as a personal thing...fine...

witch-hunts against competing beliefs...not so much...

from my studies of religions/spiritual-beliefs, it is few and far between that one finds such a "system" that respects each individual's sovereignty...

rather, one's beliefs tend to influence how one "wants" others to "believe" and/or "behave"...

and those "wants" spill over into the mobocracy's insatiable desire to control and loot others...for their own benefit and peace-of-mind...

there is a reason why that flag says "Don't Tread On Me"...

christian crusades, witch-hunts, the kkk, and the black panthers...

all flawed and failed attempts to divide and conquer using hate and discontent of others...for whatever the reason...

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Dylboz

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2009, 12:44:58 PM »

No Gods, No Masters, on Earth or in Heaven! Religion is metaphysical statism, and should be rejected by anti-statists (anarchists and libertarians) as such.
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Euler

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2009, 02:18:10 PM »


religion as a personal thing...fine...

witch-hunts against competing beliefs...not so much...

from my studies of religions/spiritual-beliefs, it is few and far between that one finds such a "system" that respects each individual's sovereignty...

rather, one's beliefs tend to influence how one "wants" others to "believe" and/or "behave"...

and those "wants" spill over into the mobocracy's insatiable desire to control and loot others...for their own benefit and peace-of-mind...

there is a reason why that flag says "Don't Tread On Me"...

christian crusades, witch-hunts, the kkk, and the black panthers...

all flawed and failed attempts to divide and conquer using hate and discontent of others...for whatever the reason...



It does not necessarily follow that one's "wants" concerning other peoples beliefs or behavior will spill over into political action. 

I would also argue that religious people, mostly Christians in this country, have to be libertarians.  Thou shalt not steal means no taxation.  No forced conversions means liberty of conscience.

Besides, the bigotry and insults towards religious people that I hear out of many libertarians' mouths is impractical.  If we are ever going to have a free society, we need to convince those people that their relgion is perfectly consistent with libertarianism.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2009, 02:20:40 PM »

It's Free Talk Live not Libertarian Talk Live.  Should Ian also make it clear when he gives relationship advice that it's his personal, cultural views and not libertarian views?  

On a related topic, liberty is about religion for me.  I don't see any rational reason why man should be endowed with inalienable rights but monkeys aren't.  
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Euler

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2009, 02:21:27 PM »

The problem is that religion is incompatible with rational philosophies which have spawned the majority of libertarian political theories to date. Thus, the schism between the religious and the non-religious libertarians is one that is far older than the current wave of atheistic tendencies.


That schism is completely unnecessary.  Religion is religion. Libertarianism is a political philosphy.  They're aren't incompatible because they are not competing for the same thing.  Fascism, communism, liberarlism, conservatism, etc. are incompatible with libertarianism because they are all political philosophies.  
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Euler

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2009, 02:29:14 PM »

It's Free Talk Live not Libertarian Talk Live.  Should Ian also make it clear when he gives relationship advice that it's his personal, cultural views and not libertarian views?  

On a related topic, liberty is about religion for me.  I don't see any rational reason why man should be endowed with inalienable rights but monkeys aren't.  

I understand the show is an open forum.  However, I believe it is incumbent on libertarians to distinguish ourselves from liberals and conservatives.  For them there is little or no delineation between culture/religion and politics.  If the Religious Right doesn't like prostitution, they think it should be illegal.  (I think it's immoral but I don't think it should be illegal).  If the Religous Left doesn't think a person is being charitable enough, they must be forced to do so through the Welfare State.  Obviously, there are people in both camps that are after power for its own sake and will manipulate said groups to their own ends.

If Ian says Evangelicals are stupid or irrational, a new listener might conclude that he's just another douchebag like Bill Maher.  But if he says that I think Evangelicals are wrong but I support religious liberty, it would make a hell of a lot of difference to that same listener.

As soon as a monkey articulates why he has inalienable rights, he will have them. 
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Ecolitan

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2009, 02:54:43 PM »

As soon as a monkey articulates why he has inalienable rights, he will have them. 

I know a LOT of humans who can't articulate why they have inalienable rights.  Should they have them?
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Alex Libman

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2009, 02:57:33 PM »

I was just about to start calling anarcho-capitalism "political atheism" when FTL took a quasi-religious turn and it no longer felt right...  :cry:
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2009, 03:11:55 PM »

I was just about to start calling anarcho-capitalism "political atheism" when FTL took a quasi-religious turn and it no longer felt right...  :cry:

No gods, no kings. 
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2009, 03:18:47 PM »

That schism is completely unnecessary.  Religion is religion. Libertarianism is a political philosphy.  They're aren't incompatible because they are not competing for the same thing.
They are the same in respect to the nature of ethics. Political theory is only possible by recognizing what ethics are consistent with it. And ethics are only possible by recognizing what epistemology is consistent with them. And epistemology is only possible by what metaphysics is consistent with it.

In essence, every political theory depends upon a metaphysics to justify everything it proposes indirectly, and the metaphysics (ethics, and epistemology) of the vast majority of religions are wholly incompatible with the ethics, epistemology, and metaphysics that justify libertarian political theory. It's just that simple.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2009, 03:24:28 PM »

That schism is completely unnecessary.  Religion is religion. Libertarianism is a political philosphy.  They're aren't incompatible because they are not competing for the same thing.
They are the same in respect to the nature of ethics. Political theory is only possible by recognizing what ethics are consistent with it. And ethics are only possible by recognizing what epistemology is consistent with them. And epistemology is only possible by what metaphysics is consistent with it.

In essence, every political theory depends upon a metaphysics to justify everything it proposes indirectly, and the metaphysics (ethics, and epistemology) of the vast majority of religions are wholly incompatible with the ethics, epistemology, and metaphysics that justify libertarian political theory. It's just that simple.

Wow, that was unexpected.  I disagree for entirely different reasons than I thought I would.  The WWJD crowd would all be libertarian if they were consistent, Jesus never initiated force on anyone nor did he recommend anyone else do so.  That's in contrast to the organized Christian religions that aren't about being christlike at all.  That's the ultimate irony about Christianity, I don't think Jesus would have anything to do with it.
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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2009, 03:34:20 PM »

That schism is completely unnecessary.  Religion is religion. Libertarianism is a political philosphy.  They're aren't incompatible because they are not competing for the same thing.
They are the same in respect to the nature of ethics. Political theory is only possible by recognizing what ethics are consistent with it. And ethics are only possible by recognizing what epistemology is consistent with them. And epistemology is only possible by what metaphysics is consistent with it.

In essence, every political theory depends upon a metaphysics to justify everything it proposes indirectly, and the metaphysics (ethics, and epistemology) of the vast majority of religions are wholly incompatible with the ethics, epistemology, and metaphysics that justify libertarian political theory. It's just that simple.

Wow, that was unexpected.  I disagree for entirely different reasons than I thought I would.  The WWJD crowd would all be libertarian if they were consistent, Jesus never initiated force on anyone nor did he recommend anyone else do so.  That's in contrast to the organized Christian religions that aren't about being christlike at all.  That's the ultimate irony about Christianity, I don't think Jesus would have anything to do with it.

If Jesus came from the sect of Jews that I think he did, then he would have called Modern Christians soft.
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lspooner

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Re: Libertarianism and Religion
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2009, 03:51:02 PM »

As soon as a monkey articulates why he has inalienable rights, he will have them. 

I know a LOT of humans who can't articulate why they have inalienable rights.  Should they have them?

But they are human, right.  Can you name one monkey who has spoken up for their rights?  Cornelius and Zera don't count.
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