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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Less Stephanie, Please
« Reply #195 on: December 09, 2011, 03:08:20 PM »

...the repeated harping...it's painfully unlistenable.

To you, but it's clearly not universal. To me and certainly to many others, it sounds like she makes excellent points most of the time. When you call it harping, you're being dismissive of what she has to say as if it doesn't have a point and she's seeing problems where there are none. Obviously, that's the point of contention. I, for one, have not been convinced that's the case.

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FWIW, if you asked my wife, mother and sister, they'd laugh at you if you asked whether I was a misogynist.

Look, I'm not trying to make this personal and label you or anything like that, but that's just not a persuasive point. The point is that women have been conditioned for generations to put up with bullshit from men. In particular, I would presume that if you were raised to not treat women with the greatest of respect, the women in your family were raised in the same environment and raised to put up with it. I imagine it's a pretty bizarre scenario when a women thinks her sibling or her son is a misogynist.

Essentially, if you disagree, then make an argument with respect to specific things she said instead of this endless trantrum throwing--

SHUT UP! SHUT UP! UR JUST WRAWNG!


When I call it harping, it means I've heard it too fucking many times already.  Once was enough.  Maybe in another three or four months, someone who hasn't heard it might be reached.   Every. Fucking. Week. Is. Too. Much.

This thing about how women put up with bullshit is key too.  We ALL put up with bullshit.  The idea that it's women putting up with the bullshit is itself collectivist bullshit.  The funny thing is I don't disagree with the message--it just gets tiring.  At least bring up the myriad of other ways people are treated differently, in a way that's unwanted, because they're different in some way.  If Ian talked about how he was unappreciated as a scrawny guy every time he is on, I'd get tired of that too.  Mark and Ian have topics they don't like to hear, like abortion.  Someone brings up abortion and it's the whole fucking show--and it happens regularly.  Well, every show Stephanie's on is about feminism.
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Wayne

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Re: Less Stephanie, Please
« Reply #196 on: December 09, 2011, 03:36:23 PM »

I've decided to listen to every episode of Free Talk Live a week, except Sunday.
Mr. Edge, consider another host or go back to the guest show format.

Huh. Thought I might be alone on this.

I have nothing personal against Stephanie. But this past Sunday, I looked at the topics list for the podcast, kinda sighed, and decided to just not listen. Eventually I suspect I may just stop checking the Sunday show all together.

Fact is, when Stephanie is on, the show tends to take on a certain tone. One that is NOT brought about by any of the other female hosts. I think "harping," as someone else mentioned, is the closest to how I could describe it.

It's sort of how everytime a caller mentions drugs, I just know Ian is going to spend several seconds on a defense of pot. Sometimes its a bit too long, or out of place, or just annoying in the context of the call... I roll my eyes and just wait for the moment to pass.

Stephanie has the same fixation/passion/pet issue/whatever with feminist issues. The thing is, where it can be demonstrated that, like it or not, the drug issue has a pro-liberty side, and Ian is consistently on it, Stephanie's feminism doesn't.  It usually just seems to be her personal preferences spun to somehow be an important issue for the liberty movement (we get it, you don't like "girl." Don't know how the boys have been allowed to get away with that for so long.)

Moreover, much of the time Stephanie's perspective seems clearly skewed, even biased, sometimes to the point where I don't even think she's being intellectually honest anymore. There was a recent Sunday show where a guest was on who talked about, IIRC, domestic violence toward men. I understand many people are unaware of the facts about it. But I seem to recall that at a couple of points Stephanie seemed to take offense to some of the stats, or verbiage, or something, as if she wanted to argue with the guest. As if the guest (female) was attacking women simply by pointing out facts very similar to the ones Stephanie likes to focus on.

tl;dr - Stephanie's feminist fixation is much worse, less relevant, and far more annoying than Ian's drug fixation, to the point I just get tired of listening to the Sunday show. Just my two cents.
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Syd Roc

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Re: Less Stephanie, Please
« Reply #197 on: December 09, 2011, 03:52:05 PM »

I listened to the last Porc Therapy with Buzz and for the life of me, I can't figure out what all the outrage is about. Most everything she said in there seemed like calm, sensible opinions.

She brought up the question of why there aren't more ladies in the liberty movement. I wish you guys would realize what a great ally Stephanie can be in answering that question.

This.

I mean, the closest I've ever come to being annoyed by Stephanie's points is when they were talking about the "girl" thing. But on the other hand, I can't make a universal rule. I'm black, and there are ways I don't like hearing black people being talked about, even if the ppl aren't talking about me specifically. So I kinda get where she's coming from in that regard...
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ElGuapo

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Re: Less Stephanie, Please
« Reply #198 on: December 10, 2011, 01:59:30 PM »

I've decided to listen to every episode of Free Talk Live a week, except Sunday.
Mr. Edge, consider another host or go back to the guest show format.

Huh. Thought I might be alone on this.

I have nothing personal against Stephanie. But this past Sunday, I looked at the topics list for the podcast, kinda sighed, and decided to just not listen. Eventually I suspect I may just stop checking the Sunday show all together.

You're certainly not alone on this. I usually fast-forward through most of the Sunday shows now because I don't want to hear Stephanie's constant insistence that various things are gender issues, or the phony "I'm sorry(s)" that she throws out every time someone mentions that they have parents (I'm exaggerating), and that because she was a kid; she knows what it's like to be a parent, etc. I still generally download the Sunday show - but I've started replacing my Monday-morning podcast with Marc Stevens & Dan Carlin.

Stephanie really stepped in it the first time (that I noticed) when Nemmy called in about a month or two ago, when Nemmy described her father's attempt to ostracize her, rather than beat her, because she didn't stand for the pledge in school - Stephanie derailed the normally-principled Dale and they both proceeded to talk about what an affront to individuality it was to be ostracized - WHAT?!?!? Don't non-violent people generally recognize ostracism as an acceptable behavioral modification option? At that point it became clear to me that there is absolutely nothing any parent anywhere could ever do for a child that Stephanie wouldn't claim is abusive.

I love free talk live because as a non-religious conservative, I never fit in with anyone and I spent many years wondering why everyone else was so damn crazy, and free talk live presented thoughtful, principled, intelligent people from various walks of life who frequently discussed topics of interest to me from reasonable perspectives - it was amazing & is why I am a consistent podcast listener. Stephanie breaks that paradigm for me, she introduces what feels like thoughtless, emotional grand-standing bereft of principle. She'd be a great occasional caller - but as a talk-show personality, she's really going to have to get in touch with her own gender and parent issues if she doesn't want to sound like a typical pseudo-intellectual hysterical feminist. I'm not calling her any of these things - I said "feels like" and "sounds like." I feel bad for writing so harshly, but...I'm just going to have to live with the fact that I'm a jerk sometimes and Stephanie really pushes my buttons.
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Fred

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Re: Less Stephanie, Please
« Reply #200 on: December 10, 2011, 04:22:07 PM »

...the repeated harping...it's painfully unlistenable.

To you, but it's clearly not universal. To me and certainly to many others, it sounds like she makes excellent points most of the time. When you call it harping, you're being dismissive of what she has to say as if it doesn't have a point and she's seeing problems where there are none. Obviously, that's the point of contention. I, for one, have not been convinced that's the case.

Quote
FWIW, if you asked my wife, mother and sister, they'd laugh at you if you asked whether I was a misogynist.

Look, I'm not trying to make this personal and label you or anything like that, but that's just not a persuasive point. The point is that women have been conditioned for generations to put up with bullshit from men. In particular, I would presume that if you were raised to not treat women with the greatest of respect, the women in your family were raised in the same environment and raised to put up with it. I imagine it's a pretty bizarre scenario when a women thinks her sibling or her son is a misogynist.

Essentially, if you disagree, then make an argument with respect to specific things she said instead of this endless trantrum throwing--

SHUT UP! SHUT UP! UR JUST WRAWNG!


When I call it harping, it means I've heard it too fucking many times already.  Once was enough.  Maybe in another three or four months, someone who hasn't heard it might be reached.   Every. Fucking. Week. Is. Too. Much.

This thing about how women put up with bullshit is key too.  We ALL put up with bullshit.  The idea that it's women putting up with the bullshit is itself collectivist bullshit.  The funny thing is I don't disagree with the message--it just gets tiring.  At least bring up the myriad of other ways people are treated differently, in a way that's unwanted, because they're different in some way.  If Ian talked about how he was unappreciated as a scrawny guy every time he is on, I'd get tired of that too.  Mark and Ian have topics they don't like to hear, like abortion.  Someone brings up abortion and it's the whole fucking show--and it happens regularly.  Well, every show Stephanie's on is about feminism.

You hit it Kenneth - I agree with you the way you posted your thoughts.
Bob Marley So Jah Say
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 04:25:59 PM by Fred »
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Pilot_MKN

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Re: Less Stephanazi, Please
« Reply #201 on: December 10, 2011, 04:35:53 PM »

ElGuapo, you really hit the nail on the head. I wish I could articulate my feelings on the matter that well.

(Good choice on Dan Carlin by the way, I'm also a fan)
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Fred

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Re: Less Stephanie, Please
« Reply #202 on: December 10, 2011, 04:39:53 PM »

I've decided to listen to every episode of Free Talk Live a week, except Sunday.
Mr. Edge, consider another host or go back to the guest show format.

Huh. Thought I might be alone on this.

I have nothing personal against Stephanie. But this past Sunday, I looked at the topics list for the podcast, kinda sighed, and decided to just not listen. Eventually I suspect I may just stop checking the Sunday show all together.

You're certainly not alone on this. I usually fast-forward through most of the Sunday shows now because I don't want to hear Stephanie's constant insistence that various things are gender issues, or the phony "I'm sorry(s)" that she throws out every time someone mentions that they have parents (I'm exaggerating), and that because she was a kid; she knows what it's like to be a parent, etc. I still generally download the Sunday show - but I've started replacing my Monday-morning podcast with Marc Stevens & Dan Carlin.

Stephanie really stepped in it the first time (that I noticed) when Nemmy called in about a month or two ago, when Nemmy described her father's attempt to ostracize her, rather than beat her, because she didn't stand for the pledge in school - Stephanie derailed the normally-principled Dale and they both proceeded to talk about what an affront to individuality it was to be ostracized - WHAT?!?!? Don't non-violent people generally recognize ostracism as an acceptable behavioral modification option? At that point it became clear to me that there is absolutely nothing any parent anywhere could ever do for a child that Stephanie wouldn't claim is abusive.

I love free talk live because as a non-religious conservative, I never fit in with anyone and I spent many years wondering why everyone else was so damn crazy, and free talk live presented thoughtful, principled, intelligent people from various walks of life who frequently discussed topics of interest to me from reasonable perspectives - it was amazing & is why I am a consistent podcast listener. Stephanie breaks that paradigm for me, she introduces what feels like thoughtless, emotional grand-standing bereft of principle. She'd be a great occasional caller - but as a talk-show personality, she's really going to have to get in touch with her own gender and parent issues if she doesn't want to sound like a typical pseudo-intellectual hysterical feminist. I'm not calling her any of these things - I said "feels like" and "sounds like." I feel bad for writing so harshly, but...I'm just going to have to live with the fact that I'm a jerk sometimes and Stephanie really pushes my buttons.


I can't quite figure out why Stephanie irritates so many others but not me - I'm thinking it must be my mother.


When I was in my teens, it was black guys that were the most adamant to not have anyone ever call them "boy".  \

Is it different now with calling women "girls"?

She sounds smart to me and I don't get irritated at all by her.  Hell, Ian can get alot more annoying to me.   I mean every problem has ta hammer (no state) and it gets to me sometimes.
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Fred

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Re: Less Stephanazi, Please
« Reply #203 on: December 10, 2011, 05:11:47 PM »

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Pilot_MKN

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Re: Less Stephanie, Please
« Reply #204 on: December 10, 2011, 05:38:06 PM »

I've decided to listen to every episode of Free Talk Live a week, except Sunday.
Mr. Edge, consider another host or go back to the guest show format.

Huh. Thought I might be alone on this.

I have nothing personal against Stephanie. But this past Sunday, I looked at the topics list for the podcast, kinda sighed, and decided to just not listen. Eventually I suspect I may just stop checking the Sunday show all together.

You're certainly not alone on this. I usually fast-forward through most of the Sunday shows now because I don't want to hear Stephanie's constant insistence that various things are gender issues, or the phony "I'm sorry(s)" that she throws out every time someone mentions that they have parents (I'm exaggerating), and that because she was a kid; she knows what it's like to be a parent, etc. I still generally download the Sunday show - but I've started replacing my Monday-morning podcast with Marc Stevens & Dan Carlin.

Stephanie really stepped in it the first time (that I noticed) when Nemmy called in about a month or two ago, when Nemmy described her father's attempt to ostracize her, rather than beat her, because she didn't stand for the pledge in school - Stephanie derailed the normally-principled Dale and they both proceeded to talk about what an affront to individuality it was to be ostracized - WHAT?!?!? Don't non-violent people generally recognize ostracism as an acceptable behavioral modification option? At that point it became clear to me that there is absolutely nothing any parent anywhere could ever do for a child that Stephanie wouldn't claim is abusive.

I love free talk live because as a non-religious conservative, I never fit in with anyone and I spent many years wondering why everyone else was so damn crazy, and free talk live presented thoughtful, principled, intelligent people from various walks of life who frequently discussed topics of interest to me from reasonable perspectives - it was amazing & is why I am a consistent podcast listener. Stephanie breaks that paradigm for me, she introduces what feels like thoughtless, emotional grand-standing bereft of principle. She'd be a great occasional caller - but as a talk-show personality, she's really going to have to get in touch with her own gender and parent issues if she doesn't want to sound like a typical pseudo-intellectual hysterical feminist. I'm not calling her any of these things - I said "feels like" and "sounds like." I feel bad for writing so harshly, but...I'm just going to have to live with the fact that I'm a jerk sometimes and Stephanie really pushes my buttons.


I can't quite figure out why Stephanie irritates so many others but not me - I'm thinking it must be my mother.


When I was in my teens, it was black guys that were the most adamant to not have anyone ever call them "boy".  \

Is it different now with calling women "girls"?

She sounds smart to me and I don't get irritated at all by her.  Hell, Ian can get alot more annoying to me.   I mean every problem has ta hammer (no state) and it gets to me sometimes.

Oh don't get me started on Ian. I'm glad Mark has redoubled his efforts in calling Ian out for his horsepoo.
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Nik from Illinois

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Re: Less Stephanazi, Please
« Reply #205 on: December 11, 2011, 04:24:12 AM »

I don't listen to Porc Therapy, but I for one enjoy Stephanie's sensitivity to gender issues when she's on FTL. Sometimes she goes overboard but that's pretty rare in my opinion, and it's no different from how other hosts go overboard sometimes about their pet issues. That sensitivity goes both ways, too -- I've heard her bring up misandry more often than anyone else does.
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Wayne

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Re: Less Stephanazi, Please
« Reply #206 on: December 11, 2011, 07:20:15 AM »

Libertarian Feminism is Superior to Liberal Feminism

Well, that kinda struck a nerve.

This right here is an example of what I'm talking about, and why Stephanie annoys me.

Let's jump to the conclusion of this vid. Despite the warm, fuzzy, we-can-all-agree-with-this last line in the clip, it's the second-to-last line that deserves scrutiny. Right after trying to soften the blow by acknowledging women have some blame in the abuses by the state, the primary conclusion of this entire clip is distilled down to:

Quote
Let's be brutally honest, when it comes to the destruction of liberty, it's the men who lead the way.

I already know some here don't see the problem with this concluding statement. After all, it's technically true, right? Well, let's alter it a bit:

Quote
Let's be brutally honest, when it comes to imperialism, it's the whites who lead the way.

That time you noticed it, right? (If you didn't, well, just save time and stop reading, because I'm not sure how to get the point across.)

While both statements may be technically true, the question is, why bother stating it? In particular, with the video above, what's the implication that makes such a "Captain Obvious" statement the summary conclusion of a several-minute Youtube clip?

I think there are two implications. (1) Women are superior to men, at least as regards liberty, and (2) well, we should be thankful that at least they're not liberal feminists, because libertarian feminists are much better.

I think both of these implications are loads of crap.



(1) Women aren't superior. Isn't it a feminist belief that the sexes are equal? Well, in my experience, this is the proclamation of the more reasonable feminist, but the truth is, it's in subtle instances like the above that the actual truth of their thinking is revealed.

Here's some brutal honesty: people in general have tended toward tyranny through the ages. The only reason women haven't been dishing out as much as the men is because of the very physical disadvantage mentioned. Had there been physical parity, or physical dominance on the part of women, there's no doubt in my mind history would not have been significantly different.

Men's primary participation in tyranny through the past has been due to nothing other than circumstance, so why one would focus on it as if there's something that needs to be fixed BEYOND true freedom and equality strikes me as suspect. This is where I begin to question someone's intellectual honesty.



(2) False dichotomy. Let's presume that libertarian feminism is better than liberal feminism. I'd normally argue otherwise, because the former is simply more subtle and, IMHO, more effective at actually inculcating the errors of feminism (see (1), above) into society. But again, let's presume the former is better.

Why are these the only two options? Are we supposed to just accept that feminism is here, good or not, and that we should just grin and bear the libertarian form because it's more palatable? That's certainly the implication of the very title of the video. Again, that implication is crap.

Quote
Big Guy (to a crowd of men): Look fellas, we know you don't like feminism.
Crowd of Men: *groans all around*
Big Guy: But hey, at least these are libertarian feminists
Crowd of Men: *murmurs*
Male Voice #1 (from the crowd): They don't get in our face and yell a lot, do they?
Big Guy: No, they don't, and we need to be thankful for that. Remember, they've been through a lot, and so we need to be sensitive and allow it to happen if it does. But at least the libertarians do a lot less of it.
Male Voice #2 (from the crowd): But I thought we were supposed to be equal.
Big Guy (shrugging): Yeah, we are.
Male Voice #2: Then how come we need to let any of them yell at us, but we can't yell back?
Crowd of Men: *more murmuring*
Big Guy (nervous): Look fellas, look, that's just the way it is. No point in getting upset, it's not gonna change. Might as well go with the flow and take the better deal.
Male Voice #3: But if we're equal, then we're equal, right?!
Crowd of Men: *louder murmurs*
Big Guy (now angry): Alright boys, you still aren't getting it.
*Big Guy throws on movie projector.*
*Hour-long video detailing the abuses of women by men through the ages plays.*
*Graphic scenes shock men.*
*Vicarious guilt is distributed.*
*Big Guy turns the lights back on.*
Big Guy: Any questions?
Crowd of Men (heads hung low): *murmurs of "No"*
Big Guy: Good. Now, go out there and spread the message of liberty!



tl;dr - Libertarian feminism isn't better than liberal feminism. Both just peddle a hypocritical perspective that doesn't advance liberty any more than actually promoting equality.

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alaric89

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Re: Less Stephanazi, Please
« Reply #207 on: December 11, 2011, 09:56:04 AM »

I gave no opinion about that video. Looks like I kind of agree with Wayne, who (if one looks at the Youtube comments) kind of agrees with Stephan Molyneux.
Doesn't matter really, simple fact is, we need the chicks. Culture goes where the hot chicks are going. Period.
I notice no other women are exactly jumping on board to defend Stephanie. I think her point is that we guys need to learn how not to creep girls out, and it is a valid point. However Stephanie should learn something herself; Men would rather be know as a jerk than a creeper. Shouldn't women be a little careful about accusing men of creeping on them?
I think Stephanie will be a necessary balancing point on LRN as the Angel Clark show becomes more known. If we somehow get Sex, Lies, and Anarchy on LRN as well, Stephanie will be one female voice among many, and her harping (If you want to call it that, I mean come on, that P&TG episode was pretty harsh) won't really be noticeable.
Note: I haven't heard every episode of Sex, Lies and Anarchy, but they defend men in general quite a bit, and their "lesbian" kidding around is kind of cute and funny. Point is I never feel offended at all, nor do they come off as arrogant or know-it-all or unapproachable. That Angel Clark show is just good, sounds mainstream.

BonerJoe

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Re: Less Stephanazi, Please
« Reply #208 on: December 11, 2011, 10:10:43 AM »

I asked a woman who was lying in my bed the other day if she got offended if someone referred to her as a girl. "No."

And she's 25.
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BonerJoe

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Re: Less Stephanazi, Please
« Reply #209 on: December 11, 2011, 10:18:02 AM »

I notice no other women are exactly jumping on board to defend Stephanie. I think her point is that we guys need to learn how not to creep girls out, and it is a valid point.

I think it's fair to say that *actual* creepers can't learn to adjust their behavior. They usually seem to be people with a bad case of Aspergers or mild autism who think what they're doing is normal.
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