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Author Topic: Law of Attraction  (Read 90541 times)

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DanPatrick

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #165 on: February 04, 2009, 09:22:43 AM »

I absolutely may decide what is and isn't true for me, just as you do!   :lol:

No, sorry.  Things either are or they are not.  This is the law of identity.  A=A.  Reality exists independently of what you or I or anyone else has to say about it.
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Rillion

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #166 on: February 04, 2009, 09:23:11 AM »

I'm not sure how I would prove it scientifically - because I'm not a scientist.  So I'll keep doing what I do best, instead.   :P

Translation:  "I don't care if it's true or not, so I'm unwilling to try and find out.  I'm just going to keep assuming it's true because it makes me feel better to believe so."
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #167 on: February 04, 2009, 09:30:17 AM »

That's true.  LoA is simply an observation of the working of that universe.  Certainly an unscientific observation.

Are you kidding?  Observations of the working of the universe are absolutely scientific-- that is, they are empirical statements that can be scientifically tested.  If the LoA is actually true, then it is testable.  Are there any experiments which have supported the conclusion that the LoA is true?  None that I know of.  Hmm, wonder why that is?  

My observations aren't scientific, they're personal.  Invalid to you, but deeply valid to me.  You may think what you want about them.

Quote
Ideological atheists or pantheists are no better than people who insist that evolution is false because it "makes people think they're animals" or "turns them into nihilists."  The concern is not for what is actually true or false, but what sounds better according to their mindset.  Such people are welcome to believe whatever they want, but when it comes to telling the rest of us what is true or not true.....please don't bother.  Truth is not your primary concern, and what you say is therefore not a primary concern for those who want truth.

You have your truth, and I have mine.  We all get to decide what is true for ourselves.
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DanPatrick

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #168 on: February 04, 2009, 09:32:04 AM »

I'm not sure how I would prove it scientifically - because I'm not a scientist.  So I'll keep doing what I do best, instead.   :P

Translation:  "I don't care if it's true or not, so I'm unwilling to try and find out.  I'm just going to keep assuming it's true because it makes me feel better to believe so."

It's really just kind of sad.  I always feel bad for people that take this kind of attitude.  This is the exact same reasoning that people use to reconcile their beliefs with any number of irrational things.  "Thinking is hard".  It's easier to just have a completely unfounded belief that you follow on blind faith.  When anyone raises an issue with it you just respond with "Well it's what I believe.  It just feels right".

If you believe in things based on how they make you feel, then you can absolutely believe in anything.  It just takes the right charlatan with a persuasive enough argument to make you feel that something else is right.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #169 on: February 04, 2009, 09:34:05 AM »

I'm not sure how I would prove it scientifically - because I'm not a scientist.  So I'll keep doing what I do best, instead.   :P

Translation:  "I don't care if it's true or not, so I'm unwilling to try and find out.  I'm just going to keep assuming it's true because it makes me feel better to believe so."

My life's all about how I feel and specifically feeling better.

I don't care if YOU think it's true, because your beliefs don't affect mine.  I know it's true based on my experience.  You say it's not because I haven't proven it to you, so your truth is different than mine, and that's OK.
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DanPatrick

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #170 on: February 04, 2009, 09:37:24 AM »

You have your truth, and I have mine.  We all get to decide what is true for ourselves.

Yes, we each have an opinion.  Our opinions are opposite of one another.  One of us is right and one is wrong.  It is possible that we're both wrong.  Whichever opinion is true, there is objective evidence by which we can use reason to arrive at that conclusion.  The difference is that I am open to arriving at the conclusion of what is true based on evidence and measurable proofs.  You, apparently, are open to arriving at it based on what feels good.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #171 on: February 04, 2009, 09:38:43 AM »

It's really just kind of sad.  I always feel bad for people that take this kind of attitude.  This is the exact same reasoning that people use to reconcile their beliefs with any number of irrational things.  "Thinking is hard".  It's easier to just have a completely unfounded belief that you follow on blind faith.

Except we're talking about something (LoA) that is founded upon personal experience, not unfounded belief and blind faith.

I say Law of Attraction exists, because I've experienced it.  You say prove it.  I say I've already proven to myself and I have no obligation to prove it to you.  You declare my experience invalid then proceed to feel sorry for me.  

Rinse, repeat.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #172 on: February 04, 2009, 09:43:59 AM »

Yes, we each have an opinion.  Our opinions are opposite of one another.  One of us is right and one is wrong.  It is possible that we're both wrong.  Whichever opinion is true, there is objective evidence by which we can use reason to arrive at that conclusion.  The difference is that I am open to arriving at the conclusion of what is true based on evidence and measurable proofs.  You, apparently, are open to arriving at it based on what feels good.

Actually, we both have different beliefs that are based upon the data we have collected in our life experience.  My belief is right for me and yours is right for you.  I feel good, and so should you.  Do you?  If not, why not?  Aren't you here to feel good?  I know I am.
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DanPatrick

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #173 on: February 04, 2009, 09:46:59 AM »

It's really just kind of sad.  I always feel bad for people that take this kind of attitude.  This is the exact same reasoning that people use to reconcile their beliefs with any number of irrational things.  "Thinking is hard".  It's easier to just have a completely unfounded belief that you follow on blind faith.

Except we're talking about something (LoA) that is founded upon personal experience, not unfounded belief and blind faith.

I say Law of Attraction exists, because I've experienced it.  You say prove it.  I say I've already proven to myself and I have no obligation to prove it to you.  You declare my experience invalid then proceed to feel sorry for me.  

Rinse, repeat.

Ian, there are plenty of people believing things that I disagree with.  You're absolutely welcome to believe whatever you want.  Everyone is.  The problem I have with it is when you start trying to convince other people that it's true.  You're making lots of claims here about how this is all just your personal belief and you don't have to prove it to anyone, but the fact of the matter is that you're having guests on the show that are clearly trying to claim that LoA is a Universal Law.  When you do that, you're implicitly inviting inquiry and criticism to which you're refusing to respond.  If you were having any other sort of mystic on the show making claims about any other kind of nonsense while you essentially endorsed it as valid, I would be speaking out against that as well.

Your claims of this being a personal belief that you don't want to defend end when you bring someone on the show and openly endorse it as being a Universal truth.
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John Shaw

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #174 on: February 04, 2009, 09:50:29 AM »

GAH! MORAL RELATIVISM!!! SUBJECTIVIST METAPHYSICS!!!

Aw Ian, you know you're one of my top ten favorite people that aren't me and I don't hang out with regularly, right? For serious.

But listen, man, all you have to suggest that what you believe is true, is your assertion that it is so. While that may be good enough for you, and I understand that you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about all that intellectual claptrap book learnin', you can easily put the LOA to the test and know if it's true or not in a matter of seconds.

Get a penny.

Desire for the outcome of a flip with all your heart. Want the outcome. Be open to it.

Flip it 100 times and write it down. Flip it more and you'll get more accuracy.

Record the outcome.

Get back to me.

You will find that wanting something, no matter how badly, will not make it so, or even more likely. Now, I doubt that you will do the penny test, because you seem fairly insistent and maybe a tiny bit closed minded about it, and will probably not want to "waste your time." or whatever. That's cool. But then you know that you weren't even willing to take five or ten minutes to put your beliefs to the test.

Non-subjective reality and moral relativism are eventually gonna trip you up, from a political standpoint. If there's no right or wrong way to do things, then any behavior is acceptable.

I could argue in favor of a large, powerful state based on nothing but "Well, in my reality, the state is good, therefore I, and all the people who agree with me, who are the majority, will support the state." and you can't dispute the claim without a contradiction.

That's bad news, because you've voluntarily given them the upper hand in the moral argument.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #175 on: February 04, 2009, 09:54:56 AM »

You're correct.  If their morality is that might makes right, there's nothing I can say to that.  Our belief systems are too different.  Better to surround myself with people who agree with my morality (FSP).

Also, the penny flip thing is another example of how you continue to misinterpret LoA to believe it can override natural law, in this case the physics of the penny flip.  Good try, though.

Anyway, it's been a fun hour.  Maybe Mark or Sam will play with you guys for a while.  I must get to work.
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DanPatrick

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #176 on: February 04, 2009, 09:58:49 AM »

Actually, we both have different beliefs that are based upon the data we have collected in our life experience.  My belief is right for me and yours is right for you.  I feel good, and so should you.  Do you?  If not, why not?  Aren't you here to feel good?  I know I am.

Feeling good is not a measure of being truth, unfortunately.

Lots of people who are in pain, real pain, sometimes find comfort in crack pot treatments.  Some people have seen faith healers and televangelists.  After the experience they feel better.  They really do.  By every subjective measurement of their experience they feel better.  They say they feel better.  They look like they feel better.  However, feeling better and being better aren't the same thing.  From what I understand, using heroin makes you feel really good.  But I don't recommend people use heroin because no matter how good it feels and how great they think it is for them because of how good it feels, the reality is that it isn't good for them.
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fatcat

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #177 on: February 04, 2009, 09:59:55 AM »

I say Law of Attraction exists, because I've experienced it.  You say prove it.  I say I've already proven to myself and I have no obligation to prove it to you.  You declare my experience invalid then proceed to feel sorry for me.  

Replace Law of Attraction with ghosts, alien abduction, headache causing radiowaves, healing magnets, homeopathy.

The reason why personal experience alone is an invalid process to define beliefs is because humans are incredibly biased to certain fallacies, and are

I'm not sure whether you believe in Heaven and Hell or not, I remember one time you claimed not to believe in god.

Clearly this is an instance where personal bias leads to belief where evidence does not justify it.

People don't want to die, or rather, don't want death to be the end of their existence, its a universal human trait, so they make something up, or rather believe in something someone else has made up to make themselves feel better.

Death isn't the end, if you're good you go to Heaven, or you get reincarnated, or you go to Valhalla, whatever the belief happens to be.

However, there is not one test or piece of evidence that has ever verified the existence of any of these places.

They always exist in some other dimension, or otherwise cannot be reached or ever proved.

Why believe that you're going to heaven any more than you're going to Valhalla? No reason of factual truth as theres no more empirical evidence for one than the other, people choose to believe in it because it makes them feel good.


The reason you should care about using the scientific method to determine truth, is so you can avoid letting your own personal bias distort your view on reality.

Everyone should seek to have as many true beliefs, and as few false beliefs as possible, right?

The only way you can be sure whether your beliefs are true or not is via objective, scientific verification, if you actually care whether what you believe in is true or not, then you are obligated to be able to demonstrate it, to yourself, and to others.

"i know its true" simply isn't enough. You're no different to a kook whos convinced himself he can move things with his mind, or has been abducted by aliens. Its true enough for them "personally", but as soon as it comes to proving it to anyone else, and thereby themselves, they can't do it, because what they believe isn't true, its just a very complicated way of lying to yourself.

Fortunately most people are fairly rational in most other respects, and use forms of the scientific method every day. You get very few people jumping from skyscrapers believing they can fly just because they feel they can, you get very few people walking through traffic because they believe they won't be harmed because they have diving protection, you get very few people touching high voltage electricity because they don't believe electricity exists for personal reasons.

People only afford themselves unscientific delusions in respects where it won't actually affect their life much, like what happens after they die, or things like "crystal energy" when the worst thing that can happen is losing some money on some useless tat.

Science, it works bitches.
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John Shaw

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #178 on: February 04, 2009, 10:03:25 AM »

You're correct.  If their morality is that might makes right, there's nothing I can say to that.  Our belief systems are too different.  Better to surround myself with people who agree with my morality (FSP).

So it's mob rule then. You just claimed to embrace the concept of mob rule. Remember what I said about contradictions? :-(

Also, the penny flip thing is another example of how you continue to misinterpret LoA to believe it can override natural law, in this case the physics of the penny flip.  Good try, though.

So name one thing that the LOA can effect. Specifically.

Anyway, it's been a fun hour.  Maybe Mark or Sam will play with you guys for a while.  I must get to work.

Man, you're always mean to me. If it's all just "playing" then I guess I shouldn't bother trying to help you out with your fallacy. Sorry about that. I'll just go back to posting tits, I guess.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Law of Attraction
« Reply #179 on: February 04, 2009, 10:08:28 AM »

Mob rule is what we have.  I would like to evolve past that, but we'll need to create a peaceful mob first (FSP) to persuade the mob-rule types to evolve their thinking.

Ok... really leaving now.
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