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Author Topic: Labels, specifically "libertarian"  (Read 2709 times)

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Spideynw

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Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« on: June 17, 2009, 11:29:29 AM »

I just wanted to say I am sympathetic to both Ian's and Mark's pov (point of view).  First of all, from Mark's pov, he is not necessarily a "small-government Republican", because really, how many Republicans believe in legalizing all drugs, prostitution, and gambling?  Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Mark believes those should be legalized.  So labeling himself a "Republican" is not really very valid, even if you add "small-government" to it.

On the other hand, he does believe in government.  Ian does not.  So how can both groups be clumped into being labeled as "libertarians"?  And supposedly, a libertarian believes in liberty, and how can one have liberty when his or her property is taken without his or her consent through taxation?
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fatcat

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2009, 11:58:09 AM »

Some people take a consequentialist view of liberty.

I.e. that without a limited government to handle justice, and road infrastructure, that there would be less total freedom, so thereby they believe they are advocating a system for the most possible individual freedom.

Not using the word Libertarian because there are other people who use it who aren't using it in the same way as you is stupid. In that case everyone should throw out atheist, agnostic, theist, and a bunch of other labels because nearly everyone has a slightly different definition for what each of those mean.

Also semantic label games are useless and/or boring.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 12:00:08 PM by fatcat »
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Spideynw

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2009, 12:41:24 PM »

Some people take a consequentialist view of liberty.

I.e. that without a limited government to handle justice, and road infrastructure, that there would be less total freedom, so thereby they believe they are advocating a system for the most possible individual freedom.

That is irrelevant to my point.  My point was that no-government libertarians cannot reconcile the difference in opinion with pro-government libertarians.  A no-government libertarian believes taxation is theft, and as such, does not want to be labeled a libertarian if libertarian represents pro-government.

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Not using the word Libertarian because there are other people who use it who aren't using it in the same way as you is stupid.

It depends on what stupid is.  I think calling someone stupid for not wanting to be mislabeled is stupid.

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In that case everyone should throw out atheist, agnostic, theist, and a bunch of other labels because nearly everyone has a slightly different definition for what each of those mean.

Not really.

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Also semantic label games are useless and/or boring.

That would be a personal opinion, not a fact.
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fatcat

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 01:11:53 PM »

Some people take a consequentialist view of liberty.

I.e. that without a limited government to handle justice, and road infrastructure, that there would be less total freedom, so thereby they believe they are advocating a system for the most possible individual freedom.

That is irrelevant to my point.  My point was that no-government libertarians cannot reconcile the difference in opinion with pro-government libertarians.  A no-government libertarian believes taxation is theft, and as such, does not want to be labeled a libertarian if libertarian represents pro-government.

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Not using the word Libertarian because there are other people who use it who aren't using it in the same way as you is stupid.

It depends on what stupid is.  I think calling someone stupid for not wanting to be mislabeled is stupid.

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In that case everyone should throw out atheist, agnostic, theist, and a bunch of other labels because nearly everyone has a slightly different definition for what each of those mean.

Not really.

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Also semantic label games are useless and/or boring.

That would be a personal opinion, not a fact.

So you're not going to use any word that other people have a different definition for?

When I say Atheist I mean that I lack the belief in a deity. Some people think atheist means that I believe there is no god. Should I start calling myself "non-theist" or "agnostic-atheist" to avoid "mislabeling"?

Or maybe i shouldn't care because the nature of language is a fluid or personal thing, and you're never going to get everyone to agree to use the same definitions.
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Spideynw

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 01:31:29 PM »


So you're not going to use any word that other people have a different definition for?

Again, the point of this thread is just that I can see the pov from both sides.  I am not making any claims as to who is right or wrong.

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When I say Atheist I mean that I lack the belief in a deity. Some people think atheist means that I believe there is no god.

I don't see the difference.  Seems to me you are saying there is no God.

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Should I start calling myself "non-theist" or "agnostic-atheist" to avoid "mislabeling"?

If you think it will convey your beliefs better, sure.

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Or maybe i shouldn't care because the nature of language is a fluid or personal thing, and you're never going to get everyone to agree to use the same definitions.

Sure, if you don't care if people understand you.

Semantics is a valid philosophical debating point you know.
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fatcat

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 05:38:57 PM »

If I tell someone I'm a libertarian, the predominant response I get is, "whats that?", then I explain it to them.

If I tell someone I'm a libertarian and they say, "oh like glenn beck", I'll say, no, not like glenn beck, then I explain it to them, problem solved.

If I start using Voluntaryist or some such shit, all I'm going to get is a bunch more people saying, "whats that?", and if anyone famous ever starts using it, and they don't use it in the same way as I'm using it, I'll have to switch name again to avoid "mislabeling".

God is a perfect example. Some people say god is love. Some people say god is math and physics. Some people think god is a big beardy fuck sitting in the sky. It would be impossible to keep track of all the different names needed for all the billions of definitions of god.

So if someone says, I believe in god, all I have to say is "what do you mean by that?". Definition problem solved. Everyone doesnt need to invent a separate definition for their own quirk. Its accepted in language that people use words in different ways to other people.

Also, the difference between atheism and saying there is no god is simple.

I don't believe in unicorns. - (lack of belief)

I believe there are no unicorns. - (belief in a lack)
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Richard Garner

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 06:07:54 PM »

I think Ian's position is incorrect on this: He is saying that if a libertarian is someone who just wants smaller, or less government, then he is not a libertarian. But he wants no government, which is certainly less government than we have now.
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Spideynw

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 12:02:58 PM »

I think Ian's position is incorrect on this: He is saying that if a libertarian is someone who just wants smaller, or less government, then he is not a libertarian. But he wants no government, which is certainly less government than we have now.

No, he is saying someone that wants less government, but does not want to eliminate it, is not a libertarian.
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Richard Garner

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 04:34:12 PM »

I think Ian's position is incorrect on this: He is saying that if a libertarian is someone who just wants smaller, or less government, then he is not a libertarian. But he wants no government, which is certainly less government than we have now.

No, he is saying someone that wants less government, but does not want to eliminate it, is not a libertarian.

Ah, well that may be correct, in that they are contradicting libertarianism after a point. However, I suppose that you could call them "more libertarian" than those that want even more government.
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Spideynw

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Re: Labels, specifically "libertarian"
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 08:17:41 PM »



Ah, well that may be correct, in that they are contradicting libertarianism after a point. However, I suppose that you could call them "more libertarian" than those that want even more government.

I would say a no-government libertarian as opposed to a pro-government libertarian...
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