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Author Topic: Is it possible to be completely government free?  (Read 9672 times)

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markuzick

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2007, 07:21:05 AM »

But how are you going to get everyone's consent?

It's about competition in a free market. If you don't consent, you can switch suppliers of governmental services.

If you mean, "What if the statists object to liberty?", then it's a matter of becoming strong enough, or making the statists weak enough so that we can defend our freedom.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

markuzick

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2007, 07:25:29 AM »

But how are you going to get everyone's consent?

Negotiation.  If you and 4 other friends jointly own a business (type of government), you are not going to always agree on the proper course of action.  Just cause the majority makes a decision doesn't mean the others are forced to follow with force.

Governments form naturally in society.

You're conflating business, where everyone entered voluntarily, with government, where everyone did not. Try again.

P.S. Governments do not "form naturally." They form through violent conquest and by no other means. The U.S. is no exception.

No, your conflating the State ( an aggressive form of government ) with all forms of government.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2007, 07:44:52 AM »

Exactly how do voluntary agreements between individuals constitute "government"?
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markuzick

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2007, 08:11:14 AM »

Exactly how do voluntary agreements between individuals constitute "government"?

They don't, by themselves, but if these agreements are structured in such a way as to form an organization, then you have a government.

Quote
American Heritage Dictionary
   7. Administration or management of an organization, business, or institution.

This is the most general definition, but thanks to statist indoctrination, the aggressive form of government (the State), which is but a subcategory that falls under this definition, has become the default definition of government.

BTW: There can be voluntary governments for the internal control of companies that make widgets, but when we talk about anarchy we are usually referring to businesses and organizations that specialize in services related to maintaining order, protecting rights and settling disputes.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2007, 08:15:21 AM »

I usually hear this definition called "governance," to distinguish it from the coercive institution called "government."
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markuzick

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2007, 08:46:28 AM »

I usually hear this definition called "governance," to distinguish it from the coercive institution called "government."

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
gov·ern·ance      /ˈgʌvərnəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[guhv-er-nuhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   government; exercise of authority; control.
2.   a method or system of government or management.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Taors

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2007, 08:57:29 AM »

Management seems like a better term.
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ladyattis

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2007, 12:16:42 PM »

Once the world is free of irrational thugs, then you'll see it go away. And I'm not talking about that government really protects us from the thugs, rather the thugs trick us rational folks into buying their bullshit line, thus we get trapped in it. Once they're gone, you got a certainty that government would be unnecessary as why would rational agents need government to resolve conflicts?

-- Brede
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markuzick

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2007, 10:19:53 AM »

Management seems like a better term.

Logically, they should be equal, as they mean the same thing. Politically, people relate to the word government as organizations that specialize in services related to maintaining order, protecting rights and settling disputes. So government, or to be very clear, voluntary government,  is the better term to use, if your trying to sell anarchy to the uninitiated.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

theghostofbj

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2007, 11:02:08 AM »

Uh huh, sure. As if a government would let you opt out so easily. We don't accept opt-out for SPAM, why do you accept it for government?

As Zack Bass would say, shoot the bastards.
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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2007, 11:50:56 AM »

That is why in the republic which America was founded, the consent of the governed was necessary for government to function. The constitution limits said government, and the People are sovereign to it, notwithstanding their inalienable right and duty to rid themselves of a government that does not adhere to the will of the governed.

Its not a perfect system, that's for certain. And through the generations it has manifested into a democracy, or more accurately, a mob enforced dictatorship.

I see only one form of lifestyle absent government; a reclusive life in the wilderness. Whenever you live and congregate in masses, then the whole must be considered, and instead of having a million screaming voices there must be order and structure which can attempt to deliver the most sensible and rational decisions for the whole common good. If a few disagree, then those few must attempt to redress their grievances or else follow suit with the rest. In this manner, it appears that a complete justice may not have been duly paid, but progress has to be made, or nothing gets accomplished.

The choice is not too difficult to bear when considering the alternative, which is nothing short of a room full of irate screaming chimpanzees.

Free_Marketeer

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2007, 03:52:29 PM »

So what do you call an organization which engages in the act of governance?

"agency.   1.  An entity that ACTS (1).  2. An organization acting on behalf of
customers, subjects, members, or citizens. A governing agency is the organi-
zation that conducts GOVERNANCE, whether of a GOVERNMENT or an ASSOCIATION."

-Dictionary of Free-Market Economics. Fred E. Foldvary. 1998. 
[Capitalizations indicate further definitions therein.]

^Has a thing for reference materials.  :lol:
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wtfk

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2007, 06:56:17 PM »

So what do you call an organization which engages in the act of governance?

"agency.   1.  An entity that ACTS (1).  2. An organization acting on behalf of
customers, subjects, members, or citizens. A governing agency is the organi-
zation that conducts GOVERNANCE, whether of a GOVERNMENT or an ASSOCIATION."

-Dictionary of Free-Market Economics. Fred E. Foldvary. 1998. 
[Capitalizations indicate further definitions therein.]

^Has a thing for reference materials.  :lol:

Karma+ for that.  I think that probably puts the lid on this argument.
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markuzick

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2007, 03:30:36 PM »

So what do you call an organization which engages in the act of governance?

"agency.   1.  An entity that ACTS (1).  2. An organization acting on behalf of
customers, subjects, members, or citizens. A governing agency is the organi-
zation that conducts GOVERNANCE, whether of a GOVERNMENT or an ASSOCIATION."

-Dictionary of Free-Market Economics. Fred E. Foldvary. 1998. 
[Capitalizations indicate further definitions therein.]

^Has a thing for reference materials.  :lol:

That's right. A government is an agency or an organization that engages in the act of governance, often through the use of subdivisions called governing agencies.

The use of the word government is still preferable to agency for the same reason that it's preferable to management.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Free_Marketeer

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Re: Is it possible to be completely government free?
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2007, 08:20:49 PM »


So what do you call an organization which engages in the act of governance?

"agency.   1.  An entity that ACTS (1).  2. An organization acting on behalf of
customers, subjects, members, or citizens. A governing agency is the organi-
zation that conducts GOVERNANCE, whether of a GOVERNMENT or an ASSOCIATION."

-Dictionary of Free-Market Economics. Fred E. Foldvary. 1998. 
[Capitalizations indicate further definitions therein.]
[...]

[...]
The use of the word government is still preferable to agency for the same reason that it's preferable to management.

What reason is that?
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