How the Islamic Political System ensures Good Governance?

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

Yeah, MA, I never really understood how people have smeared the Medieval muslim states considering that they even allowed some forms of banking in their later years (although a bit too late if you understand the economic shift that occurred during the Crusades). Many were fairly friendly to foreigners and were keen on trading in goods and knowledge. I won't go so far as to say it was optimal as there were problems, but it was as close to a fairly free society (save for other periods in human history like in Iceland) any part of the human species ever experienced.

Things have changed for the worse.

Only if you take the short term view. I tend to agree with Jeff Rigenbach that things have gotten better in the long term.

Not necessarily in the Islamic countries as far as personal freedom is concerned.  There was a time period when there was a lot more of it in certain countries.  And during that time period is when all of those good scientific advancements came out of the Islamic world.  Today, there are no scientific advancements coming out of the Islamic world and many of the Islamic countries are run by religious fanatics who have no interest in personal liberties or science.

[libertylover]

As Libertarians and others who are active in pushing for a freer society, what are your thoughts on this?

I'm not familiar with Hizb ut-Tahrir, but generally I don't agree with any of these "Islamic" political parties.

In classic models of Islamic governance authority was derived from "bayah" which literally means "to sell." It's a pledge of allegiance or social contract. Your basic security for loyalty trade. So Islamic thought has all the same baggage as Western thought around "consent of the governed." The foundations are all there, property rights, self ownership, non aggression principle, all of it. The problem is that the governments in the Muslim world haven't even been paying lip service to these ideas for 200 years. It's all buried in history.
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Thank-you very informative.

How is Islamic law compare to English Common or Napoleonic Law traditions?

Traditionally things are considered permissible until they are prohibited not the other way around. But the Wahabi/Salafi crowd reverses this to avoid grappling with modernity.

Again very informative.  And I can believe that your observation is correct.  It is typical of any group that feels their power is being threatened to manipulate legal systems in a desperate attempt to maintain power.  

It might make a couple good points but Good God FUCK Islamofascism.  I'd rather live under an oppressive democracy than that shit.

Ditto

Islamofascism is a made up word of the propagandist in order to slander an entire faith and has no basis in fact.  

"Islamofascism" has nothing to do with actual National Socialism, expect perhaps they abandon their own Islamic principles to achieve some crazy interpretation of a general welfare clause. I prefer the term "extremists."

What is the difference really?  You like your authoritarianism from a mob vs from a theological oligarchy.   It is like saying I prefer a knife to the throat vs a gun to the head.  Really completely meaningless choice because you are just as likely to be dead in either situation.   Authoritarianism is authoritarianism and neither is desirable.  

Muslim authoritarian regimes are not a place I would be interested becoming a resident either.  Simple solution is to not live there.  This is a reason to support a freer movement of people across borders.   Give them the freedom to choose with their feet.   But I am not happy with oppressive democracies either because they are just as likely to violate my minority rights.

[The Muslim Agorist]

What is the difference really?  You like your authoritarianism from a mob vs from a theological oligarchy.   It is like saying I prefer a knife to the throat vs a gun to the head.  Really completely meaningless choice because you are just as likely to be dead in either situation.   Authoritarianism is authoritarianism and neither is desirable.  

Muslim authoritarian regimes are not a place I would be interested becoming a resident either.  Simple solution is to not live there.  This is a reason to support a freer movement of people across borders.   Give them the freedom to choose with their feet.   But I am not happy with oppressive democracies either because they are just as likely to violate my minority rights.

Good point. I'm just searching for accurate language. Maybe "Islamic Authoritarianism" is as accurate as it gets.

[Level 20 Anklebiter]

Or rather it should be reduced to Tyranny by the priesthood or Theological Authoritarianism. It seems that if one studies history closely it's the codification of religious traditions that precede the codification of other traditions as law. Prior to this periods, there's either little or no significant political institutions existent.

[libertylover]

What is the difference really?  You like your authoritarianism from a mob vs from a theological oligarchy.   It is like saying I prefer a knife to the throat vs a gun to the head.  Really completely meaningless choice because you are just as likely to be dead in either situation.   Authoritarianism is authoritarianism and neither is desirable.  

Muslim authoritarian regimes are not a place I would be interested becoming a resident either.  Simple solution is to not live there.  This is a reason to support a freer movement of people across borders.   Give them the freedom to choose with their feet.   But I am not happy with oppressive democracies either because they are just as likely to violate my minority rights.

Good point. I'm just searching for accurate language. Maybe "Islamic Authoritarianism" is as accurate as it gets.

I suppose that is somewhat better.  It is similar to saying Islamic extremest in that it is identifying a subgroup and not all  Islamic people.  The litmus test for any new term is how would it be if the group I identified with were morphed into new word by adding ofascism.  How would people take terms like Judiaofacism, Christianofacism, Blackofacism or Yankeeofacism, being used to try and cast the entire group as being bunch fascist?  It reminds me of the word Rush Limpballoxyhead coined a few years back calling feminist, femin-nazis,  The obvious use of an incendiary word to illicit a negative reaction concerning a targeted group.

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

What is the difference really?  You like your authoritarianism from a mob vs from a theological oligarchy.   It is like saying I prefer a knife to the throat vs a gun to the head.  Really completely meaningless choice because you are just as likely to be dead in either situation.   Authoritarianism is authoritarianism and neither is desirable.  

Muslim authoritarian regimes are not a place I would be interested becoming a resident either.  Simple solution is to not live there.  This is a reason to support a freer movement of people across borders.   Give them the freedom to choose with their feet.   But I am not happy with oppressive democracies either because they are just as likely to violate my minority rights.

Good point. I'm just searching for accurate language. Maybe "Islamic Authoritarianism" is as accurate as it gets.

I suppose that is somewhat better.  It is similar to saying Islamic extremest in that it is identifying a subgroup and not all  Islamic people.  The litmus test for any new term is how would it be if the group I identified with were morphed into new word by adding ofascism.  How would people take terms like Judiaofacism, Christianofacism, Blackofacism or Yankeeofacism, being used to try and cast the entire group as being bunch fascist?  It reminds me of the word Rush Limpballoxyhead coined a few years back calling feminist, femin-nazis,  The obvious use of an incendiary word to illicit a negative reaction concerning a targeted group.

I think it should be pretty obvious and clear that "Islamofascism" does not describe all Muslims, only muslims who support fascist governmental strategies to enforce Islamic law in a country.  Obvious examples of Islamofascism are Saudi Arabia and in many ways Iran.  Clearly our friend Davi is not an Islamofascist.

[libertylover]

What is the difference really?  You like your authoritarianism from a mob vs from a theological oligarchy.   It is like saying I prefer a knife to the throat vs a gun to the head.  Really completely meaningless choice because you are just as likely to be dead in either situation.   Authoritarianism is authoritarianism and neither is desirable.  

Muslim authoritarian regimes are not a place I would be interested becoming a resident either.  Simple solution is to not live there.  This is a reason to support a freer movement of people across borders.   Give them the freedom to choose with their feet.   But I am not happy with oppressive democracies either because they are just as likely to violate my minority rights.

Good point. I'm just searching for accurate language. Maybe "Islamic Authoritarianism" is as accurate as it gets.

I suppose that is somewhat better.  It is similar to saying Islamic extremest in that it is identifying a subgroup and not all  Islamic people.  The litmus test for any new term is how would it be if the group I identified with were morphed into new word by adding ofascism.  How would people take terms like Judiaofacism, Christianofacism, Blackofacism or Yankeeofacism, being used to try and cast the entire group as being bunch fascist?  It reminds me of the word Rush Limpballoxyhead coined a few years back calling feminist, femin-nazis,  The obvious use of an incendiary word to illicit a negative reaction concerning a targeted group.

I think it should be pretty obvious and clear that "Islamofascism" does not describe all Muslims, only muslims who support fascist governmental strategies to enforce Islamic law in a country.  Obvious examples of Islamofascism are Saudi Arabia and in many ways Iran.  Clearly our friend Davi is not an Islamofascist.

It is classic propaganda technique of appeal to prejudice and demonizing the enemy.  Islamofacism is a term of hatred and prejudice which is pretty obvious.   Simply because of how it is typically used.  The term isn't used to describe Saudi Arabia or those who support Saudi Arabia.  If that were true then America is an Islamofacist country because we support Saudi Arabia.

 Israel could be considered a fascist country.  The Lukid party is seen by many as a right-wing authoritarian political movement marked by strong nationalism.  In fact the United States has all the warning signs of becoming a fascist state if isn't one already.  Yet neither country is called out on it or has a pejorative term attached. 

 
 The 7 conditions  (Warning signs)
that foster & fuel fascism are:

   1.      Instability of capitalist relationships or markets
   2.      The existence of considerable declassed social elements
   3.      The stripping of rights and wealth focused upon a specific segment of the population, specifically the middle class
            and intellectuals within urban areas as this the group with the means, intelligence and ability to stop fascism if
            given the opportunity.
   4.      Discontent among the rural lower middle class (clerks, secretaries, white collar labor). Consistent discontent among
            the general middle and lower middle classes against the oppressing upper-classes (haves vs have-nots).
   5.      Hate: Pronounced, perpetuated and accepted public disdain of a specific group defined by race, origin, theology
            or association.
   6.      Greed: The motivator of fascism, which is generally associated with land, space or scarce resources in the
            possession of those being oppressed.   
   7.      Organized Propaganda:

a) The creation of social mythology that venerates (creates saints of) one element of society while concurrently vilifying (dehumanizing) another element of the population through misinformation, misdirection and the obscuring of factual matter through removal, destruction or social humiliation, (name-calling, false accusations, belittling and threats).

b) The squelching of public debate not agreeing with the popular agenda via slander, libel, threats, theft, destruction, historical revisionism and social humiliation.  Journalists in particular are terrorized if they attempt to publish stories contrary to the agenda.


The 14 Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
by Dr. Lawrence Britt

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14-defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for
the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats
as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid.  Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections -
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

________________________________

Commentary:
An interesting note to end this article:  As of January 2004, the United States fulfills all fourteen points of fascism and all seven warning signs are present. But we're not alone. Israel also fulfills all fourteen points and all seven warning signs as well.  Welcome to the new republic, redefined, revised and spun.  It is not too late to reverse this in either country, but it will be soon.  The first step is realizing it.  The second step is getting involved.  As the propaganda slogan disguising our current war goes, "Freedom isn't free." But our war for freedom isn't abroad; it's here at home.
http://www.couplescompany.com/features/politics/structure3.htm

Are there Islamic majority countries where this list fits them to a tee, certainly.  And I fervently hope the population of those countries works toward change.  But where I draw the line is with the the United States getting involved.  Trade with them exchange ideas even express disappointment.  However, never engage in military interventionism or foreign aid.  Free trade has done far more in terms of real progress of human rights around the world than any other strategy.   Ironically building up of the USA military industrial complex tends to make the USA more fascist. 

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

Sorry, but since you obviously are extremely ignorant about Israel you clearly do not realize that Israel does not epitomize even half of your list.  The fact that you have an extreme hatred for Jewish people clouds your cognitive reasoning abilities to such a high degree that you cannot even objectively analyze the situation.  And the fact that you have some twisted love for Hamas shows that you are an idiot too (see other thread where you are saying it was okay for Hamas to murder Fatah party members because they are more interested in peace with Israel).

[libertylover]

Sorry, but since you obviously are extremely ignorant about Israel you clearly do not realize that Israel does not epitomize even half of your list.  The fact that you have an extreme hatred for Jewish people clouds your cognitive reasoning abilities to such a high degree that you cannot even objectively analyze the situation.  And the fact that you have some twisted love for Hamas shows that you are an idiot too (see other thread where you are saying it was okay for Hamas to murder Fatah party members because they are more interested in peace with Israel).

Yep play the race card.  You obviously are extremely ignorant about Israel.  Israel does epitomize most if not all the list, hell the United States epitomizes most of the list.  I would have a difficult time actually thinking the US hasn't already slipped into fascism.  So what now I am racist against Americans as well? 

You are the one who has an extreme hatred for Muslims which clouds your cognitive reasoning abilities.  I do not have any love for any of the players but that doesn't mean I am going to buy your bullshit.  I said and I posted an article which implicated that Fatah was armed by pro-Israeli forces, specifically NeoCons within the Bush administration.  When Fatah attempted a military takeover after they lost the election to Hamas in 07.  That is when a civil war broke out between the two factions.  Hamas was able to defend themselves.  Being able to defend themselves is not murder in a civil war. 

And let me clear this up, I never said that murder was ok.  Nor did I say that either of the Palestinian groups were more for peace than the other.  What your twisted Anti-Palestinian bigoted mind can't comprehend is that just because Israel calls something murder doesn't make it murder.  Even in the United States the penalty for treason is death.  So what is Hamas suppose to do with individuals who take money from Israel or pro Israeli groups to kill their leaders or to act as spies?  "A person who, with intent to impair the sovereignty of the State, commits an act calculated to impair such sovereignty is liable to the death penalty."  Should sound familiar it is the exact wording of the Israeli law.  Treason is one of two crimes in Israel that carries the death penalty.  So when the Israeli Mossad hit squad catches up to the guy that spilled the beans about Israel having nuclear weapons and they kill him.  Will you call that murder?  I highly doubt it.   

Certainly collateral damage and false accusations have happened.  However, it simply isn't as black and white as you want to present it.  Not every Fatah member was completely innocent of treason or attacking even if some were innocent. 

Just like the supposed rocket attacks give Israel and excuse to attack Gaza.  Hamas is using the Fatah initiated civil war to stay in power.  So it was a major blunder to give Fatah arms and send them out to attempt to kill the Hamas leaders.  The plan backfired in a horrible way and made Hamas stronger than ever. 

My point which you obviously missed was that Israel had 30 years to work with Fatah on a two state solution and achieve peace.  Israel politically refused to do this and Fatah appeared unable to negotiate.  There was also the appearance that Fatah leaders were taking bribes from pro-expansionist Israeli factions to hamper the process or to give away most of Palestinian's best resources.  Even you Zionist zealots in your attempt to demonize Palestinians made claims that Arafat was corrupt.  (Which I am willing to believe.)  Yet you can't fathom how a apparently corrupt Fatah party lost an election?   Given the set of circumstances, Hama's win should have been no surprise to anyone with half a brain.

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

"The Supposed Rocket Attacks"

That is retarded.  The alleged rocket attacks.  You are a complete idiot.  And your whole post is full of excuses for Hamas murdering in cold blood their political opposition.  You are a sicko and you disgust me.  And your screen name is antithetical to your disgusting beliefs that Islamofascist governments should have the right to murder its own citizens.

[avshae]

"The Supposed Rocket Attacks"

That is retarded.  The alleged rocket attacks.  You are a complete idiot.  And your whole post is full of excuses for Hamas murdering in cold blood their political opposition.  You are a sicko and you disgust me.  And your screen name is antithetical to your disgusting beliefs that Islamofascist governments should have the right to murder its own citizens.

Yes, I'm growing tired of it too. I respect other peoples opinions that dffer from my own, but she (?) obviously writes with not even basic accountability to reality. Perhaps the best course of action is to just let her type away, blow off steam. Relate only if she makes some actual grown-up assertions. That way perhaps she might learn about accountability.

[The Muslim Agorist]

"The Supposed Rocket Attacks"

That is retarded.  The alleged rocket attacks.  You are a complete idiot.  And your whole post is full of excuses for Hamas murdering in cold blood their political opposition.  You are a sicko and you disgust me.  And your screen name is antithetical to your disgusting beliefs that Islamofascist governments should have the right to murder its own citizens.

How do you think Americans would respond if Republicans won an election and Democrats took office instead?

[The Muslim Agorist]

"The Supposed Rocket Attacks"

That is retarded.  The alleged rocket attacks.  You are a complete idiot.  And your whole post is full of excuses for Hamas murdering in cold blood their political opposition.  You are a sicko and you disgust me.  And your screen name is antithetical to your disgusting beliefs that Islamofascist governments should have the right to murder its own citizens.

Yes, I'm growing tired of it too. I respect other peoples opinions that dffer from my own, but she (?) obviously writes with not even basic accountability to reality. Perhaps the best course of action is to just let her type away, blow off steam. Relate only if she makes some actual grown-up assertions. That way perhaps she might learn about accountability.

Great... a Zionist circle jerk

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

"The Supposed Rocket Attacks"

That is retarded.  The alleged rocket attacks.  You are a complete idiot.  And your whole post is full of excuses for Hamas murdering in cold blood their political opposition.  You are a sicko and you disgust me.  And your screen name is antithetical to your disgusting beliefs that Islamofascist governments should have the right to murder its own citizens.

How do you think Americans would respond if Republicans won an election and Democrats took office instead?

Or if the Republicans won an election and then killed off all of the Democrats.  Kinda reminds me of what happened when the Nazis seized power in Germany.

[alaric89]

A "theocracy" can be based on any religion.