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Author Topic: Geolibertarianism  (Read 21678 times)

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NHArticleTen

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2009, 03:28:14 PM »

Property tax is restitution?!?!?

No, a tax is revenue for a government. This theory is saying that those who appropriate a more than equal share of land should be forced to pay restitution to those who thus have a less than equal share.

you warranted my animosity at "forced to pay"...

the "forcers" should be refused, repelled, and destroyed forever...

enjoy!

« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 05:19:43 PM by NHArticleTen »
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NHArticleTen

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2009, 03:29:17 PM »

We've been over this a million times: bringing something into the human economy is an act of labor, even if all it involves is pointing at an asteroid and saying:  "No one claimed it yet?  Well then, this is mine!"  In order to own anything substantial in a free society, your ownership claim must be clearly defined and publicly announced, which in of itself is a valuable service for the economy.  Now an asteroid mining company can learn of this asteroid and consider buying it from you, and going forward they would be the most likely market entity to look for new asteroids themselves - they're paying you for their failure to do so.  Reasonable industry standards can be established for what does and does not constitute a legitimate claim.  Etc.

Go peddle your Georgist communism somewhere else, m'kay?


chime

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Richard Garner

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2009, 04:37:52 PM »

Property tax is restitution?!?!?

No, a tax is revenue for a government. This theory is saying that those who appropriate a more than equal share of land should be forced to pay restitution to those who thus have a less than equal share.

you warranted my animosity at "forced to pay"...

the "forcers" should be refused, repelled, and destroyed forever...

enjoy!


[/quote]

Sorry, but repelling people and destroying them means using force. How can you be against force and in favour of it at the same time?
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Richard Garner

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2009, 04:39:57 PM »

Property tax is restitution?!?!?

No, a tax is revenue for a government. This theory is saying that those who appropriate a more than equal share of land should be forced to pay restitution to those who thus have a less than equal share.

Of course, you'll need a large, powerful government to enforce this scheme. Oh, wait. We're there already!

[/quote]

Firstly, I don't see why a government would be needed to do this. Secondly, though, so what?
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anarchir

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2009, 04:45:03 PM »

Property tax is restitution?!?!?

No, a tax is revenue for a government. This theory is saying that those who appropriate a more than equal share of land should be forced to pay restitution to those who thus have a less than equal share.

Of course, you'll need a large, powerful government to enforce this scheme. Oh, wait. We're there already!


Firstly, I don't see why a government would be needed to do this. Secondly, though, so what?
[/quote]

MAJOR pet peeve of mine.
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NHArticleTen

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2009, 05:27:53 PM »

Property tax is restitution?!?!?

No, a tax is revenue for a government. This theory is saying that those who appropriate a more than equal share of land should be forced to pay restitution to those who thus have a less than equal share.

you warranted my animosity at "forced to pay"...

the "forcers" should be refused, repelled, and destroyed forever...

enjoy!



Sorry, but repelling people and destroying them means using force. How can you be against force and in favour of it at the same time?

defensive force is welcome, warranted, and appropriate...

to wit:
your hand, once placed in my pocket...will most certainly NOT be returned...and you will NOT be a happy camper...
your body, once trespassing in or upon my property/home...will most certainly NOT survive...as fence-jumping, door-kicking trespassers are most often of ill-intent...

and now that we fully understand each other...



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Richard Garner

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2009, 09:45:57 AM »

Sorry, but repelling people and destroying them means using force. How can you be against force and in favour of it at the same time?

defensive force is welcome, warranted, and appropriate...

to wit:
your hand, once placed in my pocket...will most certainly NOT be returned...and you will NOT be a happy camper...
your body, once trespassing in or upon my property/home...will most certainly NOT survive...as fence-jumping, door-kicking trespassers are most often of ill-intent...

and now that we fully understand each other...

Fine, that's what I thought. Now, defensive of what? What is being defended? You presumably wouldn't think, if a girl that didn't want sex got beat up by a rapist that it would be admissable for him to say, "it was self-defense, guv, she kept trying to fight me off!"

Likewise, if the forties thieves had beaten Ali Baba up when he broke into their cave and stole their loot, would they have been using defensive force in a legitimate way?
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Santiago Johimbe

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2009, 10:17:54 AM »

Property tax is restitution?!?!?

No, a tax is revenue for a government. This theory is saying that those who appropriate a more than equal share of land should be forced to pay restitution to those who thus have a less than equal share.

Of course, you'll need a large, powerful government to enforce this scheme. Oh, wait. We're there already!


Firstly, I don't see why a government would be needed to do this. Secondly, though, so what?
[/quote]

Government literally means control, which means force. If you don't have a way to force people to pay, there's no problem.
Then I just wouldn't pay.
You'd also need a fuckin' assload of bureaucrats to keep track of who owes whom and how much.

And the "so what?" part? Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and if you like this government, then bully for you, because
we all have to live with it. Not a problem for you though, so long as your "team" is in power, right?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 10:19:31 AM by Santiago Johimbe »
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Richard Garner

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2009, 12:08:07 PM »

Firstly, I don't see why a government would be needed to do this. Secondly, though, so what?

Government literally means control, which means force.

Nonsense. Government is force, but tyhat doesn't mean force is government. Not everything that uses force is a government. A girl protecting herself from rape is not a government, even though she uses force against a rapist.

Quote
If you don't have a way to force people to pay, there's no problem.
Then I just wouldn't pay.
You'd also need a fuckin' assload of bureaucrats to keep track of who owes whom and how much.

Not really. All you need is some way for people to prove that they have given what they owe, and so that they are entitled to protection against anybody that may force them to give more.

Quote
And the "so what?" part? Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and if you like this government, then bully for you, because
we all have to live with it. Not a problem for you though, so long as your "team" is in power, right?

"This government?" Which government?
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Santiago Johimbe

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2009, 02:57:48 PM »

Firstly, I don't see why a government would be needed to do this. Secondly, though, so what?

Government literally means control, which means force.

Nonsense. Government is force, but tyhat doesn't mean force is government. Not everything that uses force is a government. A girl protecting herself from rape is not a government, even though she uses force against a rapist.

Quote
If you don't have a way to force people to pay, there's no problem.
Then I just wouldn't pay.
You'd also need a fuckin' assload of bureaucrats to keep track of who owes whom and how much.

Not really. All you need is some way for people to prove that they have given what they owe, and so that they are entitled to protection against anybody that may force them to give more.

Quote
And the "so what?" part? Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and if you like this government, then bully for you, because
we all have to live with it. Not a problem for you though, so long as your "team" is in power, right?

"This government?" Which government?

Again, this has all been hashed through before. You aren't adding anything new, and I have nothing more to contribute to this
thread.
Good luck with your utopia, though. Hope it works out for you.
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Richard Garner

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2009, 07:03:08 AM »

Again, this has all been hashed through before. You aren't adding anything new, and I have nothing more to contribute to this
thread.
Good luck with your utopia, though. Hope it works out for you.

Well, as I said at the beginning of the thread, I am not a geolibertarian, I only think that Ziggy's account on the show was not accurate.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2009, 07:29:12 AM »

You presumably wouldn't think, if a girl that didn't want sex got beat up by a rapist that it would be admissable for him to say, "it was self-defense, guv, she kept trying to fight me off!"

Well, I've always joked that "minimum wage" makes about as much sense as "minimum sex"...  :roll:

Anywayz, Georgists fail to recognize what property is.  The universe is divided into two categories of matter: entities that own themselves and objects that don't.  The capacity to own oneself comes from the capacity to be an economic actor, that is to reason, act in one's own interest, and respect the rights of other economic actors (see my argument against any form of "animal rights").

There was a time when no one owned anything (i.e. presumably before the "Big Bang", but the jury is still out on all the details).  Then evolution took place, and some primordial goo was able to expand itself and influence its environment for its own benefit.  As far as we know at this time, there's nothing in the universe that can be an economic actor other than an adult human being - an independent entity of which there are several billion, each capable of independent thought and action.  (See John Galt's speech from Atlas Shrugged.)

The universal economy thus represents a growing sphere of influence that economic actors (i.e. humans) have over the universe, with each individual actor owning the property the existence of which is a consequence of his actions, whether it involved modifying objects, observing objects to create ideas, accumulating capital gains, and so on.  This creates the incentive for human beings (and any other economic actors that may someday join us) to work cooperatively, and for civilization as a whole to survive and prosper in this universe, and whatever other universes that be.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 07:46:58 AM by Alex Libman »
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Santiago Johimbe

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2009, 08:26:30 AM »

Again, this has all been hashed through before. You aren't adding anything new, and I have nothing more to contribute to this
thread.
Good luck with your utopia, though. Hope it works out for you.

Well, as I said at the beginning of the thread, I am not a geolibertarian, I only think that Ziggy's account on the show was not accurate.


Understood.
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fatcat

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2009, 09:27:18 AM »

We've been over this a million times: bringing something into the human economy is an act of labor, even if all it involves is pointing at an asteroid and saying:  "No one claimed it yet?  Well then, this is mine!"  In order to own anything substantial in a free society, your ownership claim must be clearly defined and publicly announced, which in of itself is a valuable service for the economy.  Now an asteroid mining company can learn of this asteroid and consider buying it from you, and going forward they would be the most likely market entity to look for new asteroids themselves - they're paying you for their failure to do so.  Reasonable industry standards can be established for what does and does not constitute a legitimate claim.  Etc.

That is completey fucking arbitrary.

If saying "this is mine", is an act of labor, like carving a chair or building, then there should be no limit on it. If I carve a chair, and you carve a chair, then we have 2 chairs. Me carving a chair has absolutely no interference with your ability to carve a chair.

If I claim an asteroid, and then you claim the same asteroid, either magically "this is mine" stops being an act of labor once its been done once, or you can "labor-own" my asteroid, in which I will say "this is mine, time infinity, plus 1", and my labor shall spring eternal and I shall always own the asteroid.

This is fucking dumb. Someone can say I own everything in the universe that hasn't already been claimed, but it doesn't mean they have any legitimate claim of ownership to it.

This is the same dodgy, arbitrary ground intellectual property rights stand on.

Even though it doesn't behave like all other property, you're going to call it property because it would be inconvenient if you couldn't.

lame.

If what you say is really true, then I claim everything that hasn't yet been claimed, and also I would like a living will written saying no one can ever use anything that I own.

After all, if its my property I should get to say what happens to it right?

But I guess theres a convenient loophole why that shouldn't be allowed. Probably the same dumb equivocations that come with IP ownership.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 09:31:37 AM by fatcat »
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Alex Libman

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Re: Geolibertarianism
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2009, 11:57:22 AM »

If I claim an asteroid, and then you claim the same asteroid, either magically "this is mine" stops being an act of labor once its been done once, or you can "labor-own" my asteroid, in which I will say "this is mine, time infinity, plus 1", and my labor shall spring eternal and I shall always own the asteroid.

Saying "this is mine" when it comes to asteroids is a very complicated process.  What is yours exactly?  How do you prove that it's yours?  Property has value on the basis of demand, and who in their right mind would buy an asteroid from you when they know nothing about it, or when they can claim an asteroid next to it as easily as you have, or when they can simply take the same asteroid and you'll have no way of proving that you claimed it first?  You'll probably have to send a bot to that asteroid and put a beacon on it, conduct a geological survey, publish the results, get all sorts of claim certification authorities to sign off on it, insure your claim, etc.  All this costs money and there's a risk involved - if someone else lands their beacon first you got nothing.  When there's no profit in doing something, people won't do it - civilization stagnates and collapses.


This is the same dodgy, arbitrary ground intellectual property rights stand on.

No.  We're talking about homesteading property from nature, which is finite.  You can't xerox an asteroid!

« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 11:59:46 AM by Alex Libman »
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