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Author Topic: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.  (Read 8410 times)

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MacFall

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2009, 07:27:56 PM »

I'd like to know the definition of "racism". It can mean a lot of things, from believing in the non-personhood of people of different genetic qualities, to simply acknowledging the existence of those distinguishing qualities, depending upon whom you ask.

Personally I define "racism" as any judgment of another person which incorporates certain physical attributes designated as "race" into a distinction that is other than or beyond physical (i.e., explaining behavioral traits in terms of "race"). And I also refuse to refer even to those physical distinctions as "racial". They are specific physical differences having to do with skin color, bone structure, muscle density, et al. "Race" is an arbitrary and fictional concept created by ignorant people to explain biological concepts which they did not understand.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 07:33:22 PM by MacFall »
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upperdeck

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2009, 08:20:16 PM »

Gene is wrong.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2009, 05:08:12 AM »

Racists should be ostracized.

Hellbilly is not a racist.
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tommysun

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2009, 04:14:46 PM »

how does racism work with freedom, i don't get it.. :?
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Richard Garner

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2009, 04:37:51 PM »

how does racism work with freedom, i don't get it.. :?

If you don't like a person because of their race, you avoid them, have as little to do with them as possible, and maybe try to encourage others to do likewise.

That is how you be racist whilst not taking away people's rightful liberty.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2009, 03:05:24 AM »

I don't associate with racists, and no one else here should either.


I think you are mistaken.  Almost everyone is "racist" to some extent and to say that none of the people you hang with are racist is making a mighty big claim...

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2009, 03:33:21 AM »

The term "racist" is also a bit ambiguous.  I "hang" with a lot of Chinese seeing as how I'm married to one and all of her family are Chinese.  The Chinese people don't much like Japanese nor to they much like blacks.  They are making advancement on both fronts though.  A lady we were having dinner with told us about a relative from her small town who met and married a British black and the family was so angry they did not go to the wedding and would not speak to her for a long time.  Now, however, they have accepted them and find their half-black baby to be cute.  Keep in mind that this is in a country where girls spend a good portion of their money on "whitening" cream and even names like Avon and all major brands of make-up sell such products.  There's no way we could even expect to be able to market something like that in the "land of the free"...

So people live and they learn.  People make a "trek" through this world and change as they grow and see different things.  I even have to claim that I have some beliefs which I have through my observations on this ball about how races are different in certain areas (read - inferior/superior).  I doubt that any here will dispute my "observation" that black people are better at basketball.  Does that make me a "racist"?  There are always exceptions to every rule and where I can say (based on my personal observations again) that I have observed that Asians are better (read superior) at mathematics, that is not to say that there are NO blacks or whites who also excel in this area.  It merely states that the average is higher in one race over another. 

Please note that just listing DIFFERENCES in the races does not mean that one race is BETTER than another.  Only that the percentages show certain tendencies towards certain traits.  These percentages are usually small and there are always exceptional "exceptions".  There is only one Chinese basketball player worth his salt even though there are 1.6 billion Chinese.  Is anyone getting what I am saying here or will you all simply respond with the easy response and simply call me a "racist"???

freedom_spryte

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2009, 02:33:08 PM »

I think that Gene's right. We live in a society that has elevated preferences between cultural (or racial) characteristics to be labeled "racism." Those who want to scream racism over any mention of differences between races want to ignore that there are obvious differences between cultures. Race doesn't always equal culture, but for many, it does. My psychology professor talked about an experience that she had when she was still a school psychologist. We had a shooting here at one of the schools and she was invited to come to the school to help the kids deal with it. It was a difficult assignment for her because the school was in an area of town that was predominately black. She observed the difference between how the black community expressed it's anguish and mourning, as opposed to other kids. (this was a highschool) The black community was very vocal, very out there about their feelings while the other kids were more reserved. It was difficult for her just because she wasn't used to it and it took some getting used to. I know a lot of people who would have labeled her a racist and said that she was creating stereotypes, regardless of the fact that she was using her own observations to make form her opinions.

Take that a little bit further and I can be considered a racist because there are many cultural differences that make me uncomfortable. I don't know if it's a Hispanic trait across the board, we seem to have more Cuban's here than Mexican's - but in those cultures, the men have a tendency to be very direct with their eye contact and size people up. If it's a female that they're looking at, (me) then if what they see is something they like, they continue to stare and sometimes make it quite clear that they approve of what they see. If it's a male, (my husband) then it's a look based more in male "sizing up." I used to think that it was just a rude - creepy Hispanic thing but I realized recently that it's just a cultural difference. I still don't like it, it still makes me uncomfortable and because of that, if I'm walking down the street by myself and I see that I'm going to walk past two Hispanic men, I will be more likely to avoid them or feel uncomfortable as I walk by them.

People get upset and call that stereo-typing...but if something like that is a cultural trait, that can be found more times than not within a specific culture...then how is it stereo-typing? I'm an intelligent human being, I can distinguish that there are those of a particular culture who do not embrace all of the traits of their culture. Some who even specifically distance themselves from them. The fact is though, that differences make us stand out. If I'm in a room full of cultural diversity, yet no one is actively embodying characteristics of their culture, then race/culture becomes a non-issue very quickly - if it was even noticed at all. Put me in a room where individuals ARE embodying characteristics of their culture, obviously - I'm going to notice, and personally - there are going to be some which make me uncomfortable. I tend to be a very reserved, quiet, kind of private individual. I also have difficulty understanding people with heavy accents. If your culture embraces loud talking, large gesticulations, a lot of touchy feely, a heavy accent or an urban vernacular then I'm probably going to stand on the opposite side of the room from you. Yet, as others have mentioned, merely pointing out these cultural differences or, god forbid, linking a personal preference or dislike with a cultural difference, can easily get one labeled a racist.


But, to be honest, I don't necessarily think that this begins and ends with race. I think it's an extension of a lot of the new PC victim mentality. It extends to just about any "minority" whether it be race, sexual identification or gender. There is a HUGE difference between those actions which are aggressive or which would infringe on an individuals natural rights as a human being, that are fueled by a hatred or feeling of superiority of another group and merely basing ones actions on a preference or dislike of said group's general characteristics. The advancement of more and more of a PC culture is blurring those lines though.

It just fuels a theory that I have which states that groups who have been oppressed nearly always become the oppressors and that isn't confined to race at all.
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Euler

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2009, 03:14:13 PM »

freedom_spryte,

Very well written.  I can't find anything I disagree with.  I think the FTL hosts don't want anything that can be construed as racism to be connected with the liberty movement.  That is why they embrace an extreme politically correct stance on racism.  To me, your average racist is no more repugnant that your average nationalist, statist, liberal or conservative.  They are just people who are at different points of the voluntaryist/statist spectrum.  Theoretically, if a racist supported the Non-Aggression Principle they would be by definition a libertarian.  And I don't see how you could exclude such a person.  The free-state project accepts minarchists who accept a limited form of robberty so why can't it accept a non-virulent racist?
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freedom_spryte

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2009, 04:00:04 PM »

It's a simple equation really...voluntaryists can't be true racists...because in order to BE a true racist, one would have to be an advocate of aggression towards other people. True racists wouldn't believe that those inferior to them have a right to life, liberty or property. Those who are NOT true racists, but who only want the freedom to exist in a world in which they can exercise their preferences without government interference...ARE voluntaryists. Personally, I don't see why the liberty movement should be so afraid of the media that they should attempt to distance themselves from THOSE individuals, any more than they should or would try to distance themselves from individuals who want the freedom to exist in a world in which they can exercise their preference of say...only doing business with men, or only doing business with women, or only doing business with those who are religious...or only doing business with....without any government interference.

The hard stance that they take against racism, to me, is inconsistent with the entire idea of voluntaryism. I mean, isn't that EXACTLY what it's supposed to be all about? Not agreeing with people's views, but fighting for their right to exercise them...as long as their views don't include aggressing against someone? I mean, wouldn't denouncing those people be totally inconsistent with the liberty movement?

I mean, really...how is it more difficult to explain to people why it should be ok for someone to choose not to do business with a person of a specific race or culture than it is to explain to someone why you believe that people should be allowed to do all the heroin they want, or explain the sometimes very complicated ideas of the free market and how it can replace government? People have just as much cognitive dissonance, and knee-jerk reaction to the idea that there wouldn't be any police to "protect them" in a free market world, as they do about the fact that yes, concievably someone could refuse service to someone based on their race/culture/gender/sexual preference.

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freedom_spryte

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2009, 04:12:24 PM »

Sorry Euler, I just said the same thing that you did...
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Euler

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2009, 05:14:17 PM »

I think the only people who should be denounced are those who advocate using violence against others.  Whether those people are racists or not is irrelevant.  The only wrinkle is that minarchists, constitutionalists and "true" conservatives could be construed as advocating violence because they support the existence of the state.  But the Free State Project's (I'm not yet a member) statement of intent includes such people.  Even though I'm a  voluntaryist, I don't see anything wrong with the statement of intent.
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Euler

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2009, 07:56:33 PM »

Ian wouldn't accept the great H.L. Mencken in the Free State Project because of some of his views notwithstanding his support of liberty.  If it the case that "FTL" cares more about money that being illegitimately being labelled racist, that is their right.
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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2009, 08:20:21 PM »

Thank you Admiral.




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freedom_spryte

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Re: Gene, the Christian Anarchist, was right about racists and racism.
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2009, 09:53:22 PM »

It's honestly just another symptom of special interest group victim mentality. Richard's right about there being 101 reasons not to like someone, the only difference is that the minority special interest groups have gotten enough money and media behind them to create PC lists of "it's not ok to say this and do this," I mean, ffs - if I use the word "he" or a word like "mailman" instead of "he/she" or "they" or "mailperson," in one of my papers, I'll get marks off.

Now, if it's a money issue for the show...I don't know. There's a difference between making it a non-issue and being so very anti. I can understand wanting to do what it takes...to a certain point...in order to get the message of liberty out there, but I still think that it's inconsistent.
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