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Scott in Winnipeg

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FTL is becoming anti-science
« on: December 07, 2009, 10:48:26 AM »

When I first heard FTL I really appreciated them for their willingness to be criticized and admit when they were wrong, and for the way they looked at issues from a standpoint of evidence. Does the government suck? Yes! How do we know? Mountains of evidecne here and here and here.

In the last few months I've become less and less enamoured with them. In past they, espeically mark, would appeal to science and medicine in certain situations, but lately when it's come to vaccines, the Law of Attraction, ClimateGate, BigPharma, etc., they aren't using their critical thinking skills and actually going for teh easy positions, and they start to sound nutty. It makes it hard to enjoy the show anymore.
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fatcat

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2009, 11:20:11 AM »

becoming?
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FTL_Mark

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2009, 11:32:52 AM »

When I first heard FTL I really appreciated them for their willingness to be criticized and admit when they were wrong, and for the way they looked at issues from a standpoint of evidence. Does the government suck? Yes! How do we know? Mountains of evidecne here and here and here.

In the last few months I've become less and less enamoured with them. In past they, espeically mark, would appeal to science and medicine in certain situations, but lately when it's come to vaccines, the Law of Attraction, ClimateGate, BigPharma, etc., they aren't using their critical thinking skills and actually going for teh easy positions, and they start to sound nutty. It makes it hard to enjoy the show anymore.

Scott-

You need only listen to old episodes, even going back to the local ones to hear that I have always been anti-vaccine. I have always been kinda New Agey in my religion. I have always been skeptical of Global Warming. I have always thought that drug companies are deeply in bed with the govt and that is bad for everyone. Nothing has changed for me on these topics

But our default position has always been that different people are going to feel differently on topics and that they should be free to make their own choices. I know you don't disagree with that, so what is the problem? FTL is a bunch of crackpots unless they agree with you? Come on, everybody with every opinion can use that same argument to get their own way. If we are crazy idgits then you should be able to call in and handily reveal us as such.
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Scott in Winnipeg

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2009, 11:56:17 AM »

Hey Mark, I've been listening to FTL since Feb 2007. I think what bothers me is that just all of these things have crept up at once and seem to be a theme lately. When Wayne says something as blatantly false as "Vaccines cause autism" he goes unchallanged, which is disturbing.

"I know you don't disagree with that, so what is the problem?"

Bad information being spread.

"FTL is a bunch of crackpots unless they agree with you?"

Not with me, with the world as it really is.

"If we are crazy idgits then you should be able to call in and handily reveal us as such."

Not that easy when it's 3 on 1 :)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 11:58:40 AM by Scott in Winnipeg »
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Rillion

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2009, 12:36:18 PM »

FTL is pretty good on psychology.  They occasionally talk about cognitive dissonance and different kinds of biases that people have regarding political topics.  And at the end of one show in January they read an entire long letter from me about free will and determinism (granted it was in the internet-only portion of the show, but still). 

It's just that with other science topics, they often aren't very critical....especially if that science happens to be endorsed by the government.  Or rather, if the science is endorsed by government they are occasionally nothing but  critical.  So I listen to Skeptic's Guide to the Universe, and pointedly ignore their suggestions that people who peddle pseudoscience should be fined or jailed. 

Michael Shermer is a good example of a skeptical, science-minded libertarian type person.  Maybe we should all read his book The Mind of the Market and call the show about it.   :)
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Scott in Winnipeg

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2009, 12:48:45 PM »

FTL is pretty good on psychology. 

It's just that with other science topics, they often aren't very critical

You're right.

The SGU is one of the best podcasts out there, especially for becoming science literate. Shermer is great, I've read several of his books. He sometimes gets flak from skeptics about being a libertarian, but I became a libertarian because I'm a skeptic.
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anarchir

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2009, 02:58:35 PM »

FTL is pretty good on psychology. 

It's just that with other science topics, they often aren't very critical

You're right.

The SGU is one of the best podcasts out there, especially for becoming science literate. Shermer is great, I've read several of his books. He sometimes gets flak from skeptics about being a libertarian, but I became a libertarian because I'm a skeptic.

I started listening to SGU a couple months ago, and I wish it were on as often as FTL.  It is indeed a nice dose of rational thought and is presented in a genuinely fun format.

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THOMAS JEFFERSON! :lol:
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2009, 03:18:28 PM »

I can agree with Scott about "Law of Attraction" (which could still be argued is more of a cultural / aesthetic game than anything that contradicts reason), but the other things you have mentioned are reasonable things to doubt.

Science is a method, not an orthodox faith where whatever Mommy Government says is right!  Free competition of ideas is an essential part of the scientific method, and claiming that the opposition to popular opinion is "anti-science" is in fact itself anti-science!  And since Mommy Government funds such an overwhelmingly high fraction of the studies, and has such tremendous influence on academic culture the world-over, deceptions on a massive scale are not outside the realm of possibility.

I suggest you spend some time reading the personal experiences of people who've lived in places like the Soviet Union, where politically-driven lies became so ingrained into society that doubting them seemed like utter madness!  Do you really think that, just because your governments (almost all of the world's governments are cooperating nowadays) are more sophisticated in their methods and keep you on a longer dog-leash, that somehow makes you immune to deception?
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Rillion

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2009, 03:37:38 PM »

Science is a method, not an orthodox faith where whatever Mommy Government says is right!  Free competition of ideas is an essential part of the scientific method, and claiming that the opposition to popular opinion is "anti-science" is in fact itself anti-science!  And since Mommy Government funds such an overwhelmingly high fraction of the studies, and has such tremendous influence on academic culture the world-over, deceptions on a massive scale are not outside the realm of possibility.

Did somebody say otherwise?
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2009, 03:41:00 PM »

Yes, anyone who buys into any of the latest Socialism-to-Save-The-World hysteria is doing so entirely based on uncritical faith in the government institutions putting out this alarmism - the fox guarding the hen-house.
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Rillion

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2009, 03:57:51 PM »

Yes, anyone who buys into any of the latest Socialism-to-Save-The-World hysteria is doing so entirely based on uncritical faith in the government institutions putting out this alarmism - the fox guarding the hen-house.

Again-- did somebody say otherwise?  Or are you happy to just preach to the choir?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 04:06:59 PM by Rillion »
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 04:55:22 PM »

I'm just here to rant and rave, but I was specifically aiming at Scott-in-Winnipeg's failure to understand that the burden of proof is on the seller, not the buyer, and when the seller claims any sort of a "moral imperative" to initiate aggression, as the government does, the seller is then responsible for 100% transparency and accountability to prove this imperative, which the government has failed miserably to even begin to provide!
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Scott in Winnipeg

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 05:16:47 PM »

Yes, anyone who buys into any of the latest Socialism-to-Save-The-World hysteria is doing so entirely based on uncritical faith in the government institutions putting out this alarmism - the fox guarding the hen-house.

That's not at all what I am saying.
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 06:08:36 PM »

Then what's your problem with FTL's coverage of ClimateGate, which you've mentioned in your original post?
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Scott in Winnipeg

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 06:34:30 PM »

Then what's your problem with FTL's coverage of ClimateGate, which you've mentioned in your original post?


That some of the people involved with FTL think that ClimateGate "proves" that it is all a scam. That shows a mis-understanding of science.
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