Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  The Show
| | |-+  For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide  (Read 4670 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Euler

  • Guest

I support self-ownership but oppose doctor-assisted suicide. I think suicide is a fundamental right even though I generally think it is a bad idea.  I don't think the medical profession should be involved in moral decisions such as suicide.  People should be able to have access on the free market for the means to commit suicide.  There is no reasons why doctors should be involved.  It is even more dangerous when medicine is socialized.  DIY.
Logged

LordMarius

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 253
  • The only Norwegian freemarketeer
    • View Profile
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2009, 11:50:58 AM »

Well, my friend, then you're against self-ownership. You are then of the opinion that you should own everyone else. Plain and simple. Fuck you. If I want an assisted suicide, I want assistance from a doctor and not a fuckin' plumber.
Logged

Euler

  • Guest
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2009, 12:02:40 PM »

No need to swear.  I think you didn't read what I wrote.  Suicide should be a fundamental right, no qualifications.  Right now, I believe people can be put in mental institutions for expressing their intention to commit suicide.  I think it's unethical for a doctor to actively help someone commit suicide.  Besides, there is no need for a doctor.  Suicide is a moral decision, not a medical one.

Voluntaryist Sheldon Richman has a great article on the 1990's Oregon Physician Assisted Suicide Law.

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/04/06/24/fffoundation.htm
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 12:33:11 PM by Euler »
Logged

Cyro

  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5491
    • View Profile
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2009, 01:24:20 PM »

Okay, so anyone except a doctor should be able to help you commit suicide?

Dude, that's messed up.
Logged

Euler

  • Guest
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2009, 01:41:22 PM »

Okay, so anyone except a doctor should be able to help you commit suicide?

Dude, that's messed up.

In a free society you would be able to buy all the drugs you needed to commit suicide.  You wouldn't have to beg for a doctor's help.  We currently live in a society where medicine is dominated by the governmen.  It would be very dangerous to put that kind of power in the doctor's (government's) hands.  As Sheldon Richman pointed out in the article I linked, in the Oregon Death with Dignity statute, the doctor is the one calling the shots.  I would hardly say that qualifies as an assistant.  I would never advocate using force to stop someone from contracting with a doctor but that mean I think its right.  Using your logic, a priest couldn't theoretically help someone commit suicide but I don't think that would be morally proper.
Logged

Cyro

  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5491
    • View Profile
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2009, 06:08:27 PM »

Okay, so anyone except a doctor should be able to help you commit suicide?

Dude, that's messed up.

In a free society you would be able to buy all the drugs you needed to commit suicide.  You wouldn't have to beg for a doctor's help.  We currently live in a society where medicine is dominated by the governmen.  It would be very dangerous to put that kind of power in the doctor's (government's) hands.  As Sheldon Richman pointed out in the article I linked, in the Oregon Death with Dignity statute, the doctor is the one calling the shots.  I would hardly say that qualifies as an assistant.  I would never advocate using force to stop someone from contracting with a doctor but that mean I think its right.  Using your logic, a priest couldn't theoretically help someone commit suicide but I don't think that would be morally proper.

1. Doctor =/= State in this instance. Fallacious comparison.

2. I'm unclear whether you're stating that doctors shouldn't perform assisted suicides as a mandated legality or as a personal preference. If it's the former we have a point of contention, if the later, I reserve the right to disagree, but "whatever".
Logged

Euler

  • Guest
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2009, 06:30:56 PM »

1. In our current and ever more fascist health care system, doctors are agents of the state.

2.  The latter.  I don't think doctors should be helping people kill themselves.  People should do it themselves.

Medicine and morals shouldn't be mixed. 
Logged

libertylover

  • No Title Needed
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2009, 07:36:42 PM »

Unfortunately, many who are to the point of expressing their desire for suicide no longer have the functionality to do themselves in.  Are they doomed to continue to suffer simply because they lack the ability to swallow or pull a trigger?

Doctor assisted suicide should neither be mandated or prohibited.  However, there should be ample documentation and witnesses to the fact that the patient really did want to end their life.  In many doctor assisted suicides all the doctor does is set up the dosage, the patient has the control to deploy the drugs or not.  If they choose to not go through with the suicide the doctor then unhooks them. 
Logged

Euler

  • Guest
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2009, 07:58:49 PM »

Unfortunately, many who are to the point of expressing their desire for suicide no longer have the functionality to do themselves in.  Are they doomed to continue to suffer simply because they lack the ability to swallow or pull a trigger?

Doctor assisted suicide should neither be mandated or prohibited.  However, there should be ample documentation and witnesses to the fact that the patient really did want to end their life.  In many doctor assisted suicides all the doctor does is set up the dosage, the patient has the control to deploy the drugs or not.  If they choose to not go through with the suicide the doctor then unhooks them. 

Why should a purported healer, a doctor be involved in this enterprise?  Can't a pharmacologist, a pharmacist or a chemist set up the dosage?
Logged

Cyro

  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5491
    • View Profile
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 04:21:21 AM »

Why should a purported healer, a doctor be involved in this enterprise?  Can't a pharmacologist, a pharmacist or a chemist set up the dosage?

Pharmacologists, pharmacists and chemists are types of doctors. A doctor is someone with a doctorate. You can get a doctorate is physics or chemistry as much as a docorate in medicine.

Also, while you haven't mentioned it, you're alluding to the "do no harm" aspect of of the Hippocratic oath like it's damn religious scripture. To this my responce would be that sometimes, leaving people alive is more harmful than letting them die.

Also, I'm still not seeing what the moral aspect here is; Person X wants to be killed in the hands of a skilled medical doctor, Medical Doctor A obliges. Matter over.
Logged

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 04:56:43 PM »

 Besides, there is no need for a doctor.

yeah, its not like anyone has ever failed to kill themselves properly, or that a trained doctor would know how to dose people right to give them a peaceful, effective suicide.

I'm sure people who are in the mental state to want to kill themselves don't want to go through the ordeal of having to try twice.

There are numerous accounts of people trying to kill themselves using guns, only to be badly brain damaged and disfigured, but survived.

Also many people who opt for assisted suicide are paralyzed or disabled in a way to make suicide impossible without help, besides biting their tongue off and bleeding to death.. Funnily enough, not everyone's friends and relatives are up for the idea of killing a loved one, so having a doctor do it is a good alternative.

Its no more unethical for a doctor to help someone commit suicide than it is for a drugstore clerk to give someone meds to overdose on, or a gun smith to sell a gun to kill themselves.

If someone wants to end the misery of their life, then helping them is compassionate, not unethical.
Logged

Euler

  • Guest
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2009, 07:06:57 PM »


Quote

Pharmacologists, pharmacists and chemists are types of doctors. A doctor is someone with a doctorate. You can get a doctorate is physics or chemistry as much as a docorate in medicine.

Also, while you haven't mentioned it, you're alluding to the "do no harm" aspect of of the Hippocratic oath like it's damn religious scripture. To this my responce would be that sometimes, leaving people alive is more harmful than letting them die.

Also, I'm still not seeing what the moral aspect here is; Person X wants to be killed in the hands of a skilled medical doctor, Medical Doctor A obliges. Matter over.

I thought you knewI meant Medical Doctor when I used the term doctor.  Do those of you who favor doctor assisted suicide see no difference between someone killing themselves and a doctor killing them?  Minarchist Mark was the most sensible on this topic on Monday's show.
Logged

Harry Tuttle

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
  • Please don't feed the elitists
    • View Profile
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2009, 07:12:41 PM »

I support self-ownership but oppose doctor-assisted suicide. I think suicide is a fundamental right even though I generally think it is a bad idea.  I don't think the medical profession should be involved in moral decisions such as suicide.  People should be able to have access on the free market for the means to commit suicide.  There is no reasons why doctors should be involved.  It is even more dangerous when medicine is socialized.  DIY.

I see no dichotomy in Euler taking this position, provided he does not support force to prevent Doctors from assisting suicide. I'm opposed to feces as a building material, but I do not actively seek to prevent others from building a house out of crap.
Logged
"If you're giving up your freedom to have freedom you don't have freedom, dummy."              - Mark Edge (10/11/08 show)

Hideaki769

  • Guest
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2009, 07:15:44 PM »


Quote

Pharmacologists, pharmacists and chemists are types of doctors. A doctor is someone with a doctorate. You can get a doctorate is physics or chemistry as much as a docorate in medicine.

Also, while you haven't mentioned it, you're alluding to the "do no harm" aspect of of the Hippocratic oath like it's damn religious scripture. To this my responce would be that sometimes, leaving people alive is more harmful than letting them die.

Also, I'm still not seeing what the moral aspect here is; Person X wants to be killed in the hands of a skilled medical doctor, Medical Doctor A obliges. Matter over.

I thought you knewI meant Medical Doctor when I used the term doctor.  Do those of you who favor doctor assisted suicide see no difference between someone killing themselves and a doctor killing them?  Minarchist Mark was the most sensible on this topic on Monday's show.


Why does it matter? It would be easier for me if I'm suffering from a terminal illness to have a knowledgeable practitioner in medicine or some guy with a gun who can do the job just as well. Either scenario same thing. I save my family medical bills and I'm saved from my suffering. Why would you deny someone the right to contract with another?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 07:18:20 PM by Hideaki »
Logged

BonerJoe

  • Guest
Re: For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2009, 07:38:16 PM »

OP is an idiot.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  The Show
| | |-+  For Self-Ownership but opposed to Doctor Assisted Suicide

// ]]>

Page created in 0.022 seconds with 32 queries.