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Author Topic: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism  (Read 22849 times)

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davann

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2010, 07:04:37 PM »

It's understandable that Skeptical is being confrontational. I do think he is quick to throw an insult, give a poke in the eye, etc.- but so is everyone else here. I think he's about 70% "there" but not really sure as he does seem too pro-state so far to me.

However, if anyone is denying there's truth in some of his points, then those people have a lot more faith in their neighbors than I do.. given the way I see people being so eager to drag each other down versus pull one another up, any Libertarian society would be quick to fold. I just can't give many people credit for really being responsible enough to form a successful society, with or without any claim of a "state", government, etc.
I think you and I could share a beer and talk like adults.  It's the rest of this bunch who come across as autistic.  


And I think I would be happy to sit down and throw my empty beer bottles at your head in an adult like manner. Listen, it is not our job to educate you or persuade you on libertarianism. I don’t give a fuck you are 70% there. You came here and posed a question and a false claim. When others tried to explain how your assumption was false you rejected it and starting calling names. You are a prick and will always be one. Fuck off and turn Hannity back on.
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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2010, 07:20:56 PM »

I think you and I could share a beer and talk like adults.

Absolutely. I'm into listening to ideas from anyone, any position at all on any subject, as long as the person giving their point of view actually has their own thoughts about it, not just spitting out an idea they heard somewhere and thought it was cool.
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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2010, 12:22:13 AM »

You answered your own question. If you are not obligated to pay for the unrequested protection I granted you, then I am not obligated to pay for the unrequested protection conferred upon me by coastal inhabitants.
No, you're comparing free-riderism to being a victim of a protection racket, they're two different things.  But if you can't see the difference, then libertarianism is starting to make more sense.

If you believe that coastline-dwellers extracting protection money without an agreement from those inland differs in character (as opposed to magnitude) from either my lone bodyguard scenario or a traditional protection racket, please explain how.

Quote
Yes, in the absence of a better alternative, I advocate force.  For God's sake it's been the right hand of civilization for how long now?  I'm supposed to throw it out and drink the absolutist libertarian Kool-Aid why, exactly?

Where initiating force is acceptable, those best at it rise to the top. AND THAT GROUP DOESN'T INCLUDE YOU.

Quote
Libertarian principles can inform a society, but they can never form the basis for one...

Translation: you're part of our society because we have people willing to hurt you.


Edit: I accidentally forced the metaphorical gun into Skeptical's hand.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 09:17:14 AM by gibson042 »
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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2010, 01:58:50 AM »

Quote
we want free market competition in this area as in all others.Roads or any other service makes no difference it can be better with competition and market pressure.This has been shown with the rate of growth in the computer industry which has little government intervention.
Well, there's certainly one big down side to a free market in roads; three competing companies means three road systems, which is a hideously inefficient allocation of resources.  Same goes for utilities; what would be the point of 5 electrical grids?  Is there a place with free competition in roads and utilities?  If so, do they have multiple road or utility systems?  If so, have they benefited from same?  If the answers are no, no, and no, how, other than pure theory, do you know that's a good idea?

But that wasn't why I asked the question.  I asked about roads because I'd like to know how libertarians would do roads.  I guess I've got my answer; they haven't got a fucking clue how they'd do roads.  They'd just pray to the gods of the free market for roads.  Mystical thinking.


Roads existed before the state.People coexisted before the state.People defended themselves before there was a state.So if you need a state to do roads as you claim how did the roads get there?You see,everything you are arguing is based on a false premise.Whatever you come up with existed before the onset of nation states.This happened because it is in the best interest of industries to come to agreement on standards,not because of politicians.Go ahead and bring up any point you like.The fact is it can be proven that society manages fine without a state.Who is to say we would even need roads in a free market system?The government bans or retards the progress of anything that could compete with the current system.If the state endures we will still need roads in 200 years rather than getting rid of them for something more advanced .Can you show us an example of anything the state does that doesn't fail except using violence?If violence is your only answer you aren't welcome in my society thanks.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 02:48:28 AM by Terror Australis »
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Ben

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2010, 10:09:59 AM »

I'm done here for now, I feel I made my point.  And I learned a new lack of respect for libertarians.

To summarize, libertarianism is a suicide pact.  As proof, I offered several scenarios, all of which sit just fine with libertarians:

1) Open borders are non-negotiable for libertarians, up to and including a nuke-equipped-RV-driving immigrant.
2) Open borders are non-negotiable for libertarians, up to and including mass invasion in unlimited numbers by "peaceful" immigrants whose stated purpose is to end libertarianism.
3) Open borders are non-negotiable for libertarians, up to and including mass infiltration by millions of troops of a foreign power.

The sad thing is, I'm not even exaggerating.  Libertarians literally have no problem with any of these scenarios.  I kept waiting for them to cry "foul!  We'd never be so stupid!"  But they never did.

Libertarianism is a suicide pact.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot, free markets are not synonymous with libertarian.  The secret, burning desire of every business in the history of the world has been to become a market-dominant monopoly.  How would libertarians prevent GovCorp from taking over?  They wouldn't.

The only point you made is you don't like immigrants. You seem to think every immigrant is a violent bastard, ready to kill every last citizen of whichever country they travel to. Is it immigrants from any specific location? Or is it immigrants from all over the world? If I was to migrate from Australia to America, (I'm assuming America is your home country, I apologise for the mistake if this isn't the case) do you think I'd be driving a van load of explosives to your house the second I set foot on American soil? After all, according to your logic, I'd be one of these bloodthirsty immigrants. This simply isn't the case. Australia, for example, is well known to have a very diverse population. Oh yeah, lots and lots of immigrants. Funny how things aren't blowing up on a constant basis isn't it? Wow, maybe immigrants aren't these violent drones you like to think they are.

As far as a small government.......you do realise the current government system started off as your ideal small government? Yeh, bound by a constitution and everything. With a monopoly on force, which you're happy for the government to have, it happily rides roughshod over the constitution on a daily basis. What makes you think it'll be any different a second time around? The very definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.

So you seem to think an independent society to be weak. A suicide pact in fact. Would you like to tell the class how America's revolutionary war turned out?
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Evil Muppet

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2010, 10:53:13 AM »

Does anyone here actually believe that Skeptical is even capable of being swayed by a rational argument?  The guy is a fucking douche bag troll who came in here with the sole purpose of arguing.  He has no interest in understanding libertarianism.  He has no interest in debating.  He is a know nothing putz who will just repeat tired authoritarian cliches over and over again in more and more obnoxious ways and think that he's engaged in an intellectual process.  The guy is a fucking retard. 
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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2010, 11:10:39 AM »

1) Open borders are non-negotiable for libertarians, up to and including a nuke-equipped-RV-driving immigrant.
2) Open borders are non-negotiable for libertarians, up to and including mass invasion in unlimited numbers by "peaceful" immigrants whose stated purpose is to end libertarianism.
3) Open borders are non-negotiable for libertarians, up to and including mass infiltration by millions of troops of a foreign power.

FOUL! Every one of those scenarios violates the Non Aggression Axiom. I don't think any libertarian would accept them... except perhaps in some kind of distant anarcho-capitalist world where private nukes are common for some reason.

Bottom line... there is no way for you to prevent me from inviting my Mexican friend onto my property without violating my rights with violence.

Does anyone here actually believe that Skeptical is even capable of being swayed by a rational argument? 

No. He lost me when he argued that libertarians would destroy tribes, cultures, ethnicities etc. because apparently those things can't exist without violating the rights of the individuals that compose them... or collectives have a right to exist greater than the right of the individuals that compose them to exist... or whatever.

The point is he claims to be semi in line with libertarianism, than says libertarians support genocide? If he's so far off that the NAP is not even part of his understanding he has no idea what he's talking about, and no idea how to process anything anyone is saying. It's a trap. He trouts out this bait, "I kinda like libertarianism, please explain it to me" than responds to perfectly reasoned explanations, which he doesn't necessarily have to accept, but could at least understand, with "You're stupid! You're like autistic or something and I'm smart because more people agree with me!" Classic trolling. Self esteem issues. Probably mentally brutalized as a child. What ever the case, life's too short, and it's not worthy your time. I suggest everyone disengage.
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MacFall

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2010, 11:40:26 PM »

Well, I sure am glad I skimmed to the end of the thread before answering any of this guy's posts. I'm allergic to strawmen, and an anti-troll bigot.

EDIT: Okay, I'm going to say one thing. It seems that the premise of the OP is that libertarianism is good except that it would mean the end of the nation-state. It hasn't seemed to have registered that libertarians are fundamentally opposed to the nation-state because it is the chief violator of the rights libertarians exist to defend. If one is a fan of the nation-state, one cannot be a libertarian, or anything close to it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 11:47:25 PM by MacFall »
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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2010, 01:42:38 AM »

I think "skeptical" was really just Libman Trolling. 


Libman STRIKES again!
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Alex Libman

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2010, 02:50:38 PM »

For the last niggerpeeholefucking time,


I DO NOT SOCK-PUPPET ON THIS BBS!


Ever!.


Now stop saying my name.
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BobRobertson

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2010, 02:56:41 PM »

Now stop saying my name.

...Speak of the devil...
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anarchir

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2010, 03:04:48 PM »

Now stop saying my name.

...Speak of the devil...
"niggerpeehole" = BJ
Alex Libman...still MIA?
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cavalier973

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2010, 01:06:03 PM »

So, how is law to be enforced?  No laws?  State o' nature?  How does your ideology replicate?  Oh, wait, I know, by remaining wholly and permanently theoretical; a permanent license to whine, maybe?

Schelling Points are the key.

I suggest this:

http://mises.org/daily/4108

"In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, 'nobody was killed in 1869 or 1870. In fact, nobody was killed until the advent of officers of the law, employed to prevent killings.'[14] Only two towns, Ellsworth in 1873 and Dodge City in 1876, ever had 5 killings in any one year.[15] Frank Prassel states in his book subtitled A Legacy of Law and Order, that 'if any conclusion can be drawn from recent crime statistics, it must be that this last frontier left no significant heritage of offenses against the person, relative to other sections of the country.'"[16]

Read more: The Not So Wild, Wild West - Terry Anderson - Mises Institute http://mises.org/daily/4108#ixzz0n4isH4IJ


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davann

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #88 on: May 06, 2010, 10:57:56 AM »

http://mises.org/daily/4108

"In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, 'nobody was killed in 1869 or 1870. In fact, nobody was killed until the advent of officers of the law, employed to prevent killings.'[14] Only two towns, Ellsworth in 1873 and Dodge City in 1876, ever had 5 killings in any one year.[15] Frank Prassel states in his book subtitled A Legacy of Law and Order, that 'if any conclusion can be drawn from recent crime statistics, it must be that this last frontier left no significant heritage of offenses against the person, relative to other sections of the country.'"[16]

Read more: The Not So Wild, Wild West - Terry Anderson - Mises Institute http://mises.org/daily/4108#ixzz0n4isH4IJ

Related to this, I found UNLV has a great library with old newspapers and books from these old western towns here in Nevada. It was not as lawless as people see in the movies. People got along fairly well and really the only hangings were horse thieves. Figure at the time, a horse could be the difference between life and death in some of the more brutal environments. It makes sense people would be punished severely for stealing someone’s horse.

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cavalier973

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2010, 10:56:25 PM »

I guess "Skeptical" gave up; perhaps he was a troll after all.  Still, as they say in sales, an objection is not a rejection; it's a request for more information.  This is the sort of questions I had (asked with the same snarky attitude) right before I embraced the anarcho-capitalist philosophy.
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