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Author Topic: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism  (Read 22902 times)

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Skeptical

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Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« on: April 24, 2010, 07:54:10 PM »

Hi,

I heard the first few minutes of FTL on the way home tonight and had to register and comment.

One problem I have with libertarians is they ignore the right of individuals to come together to form groups, or wield power as such.  They elevate their narrow preference for atomized individualism to the level of ideological commandment.  They go so far as to deny the right of individuals to form a nation, which is the tacit logic beneath their refusal to acknowledge the national right to sovereignty (the most basic form being the right to choose who, if anyone, immigrates).

This doesn't seem consistent.  I've never found a libertarian willing to deny the right of a property owner to control who sets foot on his property, but the majority then turn around and deny citizens the right to collectively decide who sets foot on their property.

This is an unfortunate break, IMO, because in so many ways I am myself a libertarian.  I loathe big government and centralization.  I'm dedicated to the idea of rights and liberty, and minimal government.  But I'm not willing to drink the Kool-Aid to the extent that I'd countenance obviating nationality.  In fact, I put a nation's right to exist before individual rights and liberty, and small government, much less an individual's supposed right to invade that nation at will.  I also think the national right to exist and the individual right to liberty are inextricably entwined; a nation dedicated to individual liberty but unwilling to control its membership will inevitably be destroyed by the influx of individuals lacking, or even hostile to, that dedication.
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Ben

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 08:04:58 PM »

Libertarians, typically, don't deny the right for individuals to form group. As far as thats concerned, you can form whatever group you like, and wield as much power over it as you wish. Just as long as it is purely voluntary, and you don't force others into the group (like government does) there is no problem. Its the initiation of force that is the problem, not forming a group.

Unfortunately the name Libertarian has been corrupted by those claiming to be such, but not following the ideals of Libertarianism.
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People are so brainwashed by government and media lies that they'll actually argue their own rights away.

Skeptical

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 08:19:44 PM »

Libertarians, typically, don't deny the right for individuals to form group. As far as thats concerned, you can form whatever group you like, and wield as much power over it as you wish. Just as long as it is purely voluntary, and you don't force others into the group (like government does) there is no problem. Its the initiation of force that is the problem, not forming a group.

Unfortunately the name Libertarian has been corrupted by those claiming to be such, but not following the ideals of Libertarianism.
In my experience, libertarians oppose government having the power to control, restrict, or end immigration.  Ian and Mark seem to be good examples.  I only heard a few minutes, but in that time they managed to say that a free people (implying by definition) can't restrict immigration.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 09:10:54 PM »

Free people can restrict immigration.  It's the people they restrict who are not free.  Causing other people to be not free is a power no individual or group of individuals has a right to wield.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 09:16:09 PM »

Your Property ≠ Your Country

You own and operate your property...and only that....
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Skeptical

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 09:26:28 PM »

Free people can restrict immigration.  It's the people they restrict who are not free.  Causing other people to be not free is a power no individual or group of individuals has a right to wield.
Property owners can restrict trespassing.  It's the people they prevent from trespassing who are not free.  Causing trespassers to not be free is a power no property owner has a right to wield.

In short, your contradictory diction aside, individual rights trump national rights.  1 person has more rights than a nation.  I find this absurd, among other things.

Your Property ≠ Your Country

You own and operate your property...and only that....
Precisely my point; libertarians deny nations the right to be nations.  In my mind this implies that libertarians are, at best negligent toward the right of nations, peoples, cultures, ethnicities, tribes, whatever, to exist.  At worst, they're guilty of aiding and abetting ethnocide, genocide, culture-cide, etc.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 09:29:17 PM by Skeptical »
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 09:27:14 PM »

[...] in so many ways I am myself a libertarian. 

I put a nation's right to exist before individual rights and liberty.


Wow.  Just, wow. 

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Skeptical

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 09:30:18 PM »

[...] in so many ways I am myself a libertarian. 

I put a nation's right to exist before individual rights and liberty.


Wow.  Just, wow. 


Yeah, pretty radical.  1 person, sovereign.  1 million people in agreement, not sovereign.  Shame on me!
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Terror Australis

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2010, 10:19:15 PM »

        Voluntaryism does not argue for the form that voluntary arrangements will take; only that force be abandoned.Just say five people owned five houses.If they formed a co operative group and enforced their laws on a sixth person who owned a house without the sixth persons permission or agreement and forced the sixth person to pay dues and obey their laws it is logically false to claim it is legitimate.By the same token it would be wrong for the sixth person  to say it is illegitimate for the five persons to have control over their own houses.

    Just because you have five houses in agreement doesnt mean you get to make laws for all the other houses by coincidence of having a bigger group.You cant force other people to pay for your groups activities either.The state simply assumes it owns everything and no one gets to make voluntary arrangements.It does not allow any other competing group.Your argument is invalid because there are no such choices we can make.Can you see the state allowing another government to form without violence happening?Why cant we decide which group to be part of?It is patently absurd to say any of us have this choice any more.You cannot leave your group and you know it.The entire earth is covered in groups that you can no longer join or leave voluntarily without permission,called the state.

Immigration is simply people wanting to join your exclusive group.So why cant they?Because they are the wrong color?Because they dont speak your language?Your argument comes from fear that if you let people make these choices you will no longer get to control them.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2010, 10:22:42 PM »

Free people can restrict immigration.  It's the people they restrict who are not free.  Causing other people to be not free is a power no individual or group of individuals has a right to wield.
Property owners can restrict trespassing.  It's the people they prevent from trespassing who are not free.  Causing trespassers to not be free is a power no property owner has a right to wield.

In short, your contradictory diction aside, individual rights trump national rights.  1 person has more rights than a nation.  I find this absurd, among other things.

Your Property ≠ Your Country

You own and operate your property...and only that....
Precisely my point; libertarians deny nations the right to be nations.  In my mind this implies that libertarians are, at best negligent toward the right of nations, peoples, cultures, ethnicities, tribes, whatever, to exist.  At worst, they're guilty of aiding and abetting ethnocide, genocide, culture-cide, etc.

Nations don't have rights.  People have rights.  They have the right to act collectively, but they don't get more rights as a collective, which is what most statists believe and expect.

"Abetting ethnocide, genocide, culture-cide, etc."  Really?  What entity do you suppose is the chief engineer of these things?  The State.  QED
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Terror Australis

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2010, 10:30:55 PM »

[...] in so many ways I am myself a libertarian. 

I put a nation's right to exist before individual rights and liberty.


Wow.  Just, wow. 


Yeah, pretty radical.  1 person, sovereign.  1 million people in agreement, not sovereign.  Shame on me!


It is fine if those 1 million are in agreement.But that is some utopian vision you have there buddy!You cant even get two fucking people to agree let alone 1 million.Sure you can get 1 million to do what you want through force,or make them drink the Kool aid.Brainwashing into some weird cult also works.Millions of christians and muslims believe in the same thing look where that leads too.There is no way to actually prove that those 1 million actually agree or if they are made to agree through pressure to conform and manipulation.The truth is groupthink is dangerous when it involves humans.
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Terror Australis

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2010, 10:42:25 PM »

Free people can restrict immigration.  It's the people they restrict who are not free.  Causing other people to be not free is a power no individual or group of individuals has a right to wield.
Property owners can restrict trespassing.  It's the people they prevent from trespassing who are not free.  Causing trespassers to not be free is a power no property owner has a right to wield.

In short, your contradictory diction aside, individual rights trump national rights.  1 person has more rights than a nation.  I find this absurd, among other things.

Your Property ≠ Your Country

You own and operate your property...and only that....
Precisely my point; libertarians deny nations the right to be nations.  In my mind this implies that libertarians are, at best negligent toward the right of nations, peoples, cultures, ethnicities, tribes, whatever, to exist.  At worst, they're guilty of aiding and abetting ethnocide, genocide, culture-cide, etc.

Nations don't have rights.  People have rights.  They have the right to act collectively, but they don't get more rights as a collective, which is what most statists believe and expect.

"Abetting ethnocide, genocide, culture-cide, etc."  Really?  What entity do you suppose is the chief engineer of these things?  The State.  QED

The state and the nation are non existent as you say.It is a collective of individuals with no more rights than one individual has.
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Andy

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2010, 10:45:45 PM »

[...] in so many ways I am myself a libertarian. 

I put a nation's right to exist before individual rights and liberty.


Wow.  Just, wow. 


Yeah, pretty radical.  1 person, sovereign.  1 million people in agreement, not sovereign.  Shame on me!

By what logic do you decide how much territory the 1 million control?

Skeptical

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2010, 11:01:35 PM »

Voluntaryism does not argue for the form that voluntary arrangements will take; only that force be abandoned.Just say five people owned five houses.If they formed a co operative group and enforced their laws on a sixth person who owned a house without the sixth persons permission or agreement and forced the sixth person to pay dues and obey their laws it is logically false to claim it is legitimate.By the same token it would be wrong for the sixth person  to say it is illegitimate for the five persons to have control over their own houses.
That's not the issue at hand.  The issue at hand is that libertarians don't think the 5 people have a right to create a neighborhood from which they can exclude people.

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Why cant we decide which group to be part of?
Precisely my point; libertarians refuse to acknowledge the right to make this decision.

Quote
Immigration is simply people wanting to join your exclusive group.So why cant they?Because they are the wrong color?Because they dont speak your language?Your argument comes from fear that if you let people make these choices you will no longer get to control them.
So, your libertarianism is predicated on your idea of political correctness?  If not, why bring up "wrong color" or language at all?  It doesn't matter why I don't want someone trespassing on my property, does it?

Quote from: WTFK
Nations don't have rights.  People have rights.  They have the right to act collectively, but they don't get more rights as a collective, which is what most statists believe and expect.
You're contradicting yourself.  On one hand, you deny that nations have rights.  On the other, you acknowledge that people have the right to act collectively.  Which is it?  Do people have the right, as individuals, to form collectives, or not?  And if so, what's the difference  between that and national rights?

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"Abetting ethnocide, genocide, culture-cide, etc."  Really?  What entity do you suppose is the chief engineer of these things?  The State.  QED
I'm leaving the State out of this, because this question doesn't hinge on the State.  It's about libertarians' refusal to acknowledge the right of individuals to form and act as collectives.  According to libertarians, 5 guys have the right to own and control property, but they don't have the right to form a collective substrate beneath their property, call it a nation, and own and control it.

It is fine if those 1 million are in agreement.But that is some utopian vision you have there buddy!You cant even get two fucking people to agree let alone 1 million.
Libertarians are supposed to be good with theory.  How about 1 million agreeing to abide by the popular vote?

Quote
The state and the nation are non existent as you say.It is a collective of individuals with no more rights than one individual has.
No, libertarians don't acknowledge the right of collectives at all, if they don't acknowledge the right of nations to control immigration.  It's tantamount to rejecting the idea of nations altogether.  Maybe this sort of ideological rigidity stands in the way of libertarianism's popularity.
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Skeptical

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Re: Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2010, 11:02:53 PM »

By what logic do you decide how much territory the 1 million control?
Why complicate the matter?  We're talking theory.
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