Fatal Flaw of Libertarianism

[Ecolitan]

You guys should try to sell Israel on libertarianism.  I bet open borders would go down really well with the Israelis.

Right, wouldn't want all those displaced palestinians to go back to farming the same land they did in the 40's.  You're right Israel could not exist w/o initiation of force on innocent people.

[Skeptical]

You guys should try to sell Israel on libertarianism.  I bet open borders would go down really well with the Israelis.

Right, wouldn't want all those displaced palestinians to go back to farming the same land they did in the 40's.  You're right Israel could not exist w/o initiation of force on innocent people.

You're right, of course.  Don't Israelis know what's good for them?  Open borders would solve a lot of Israel's problems.  Like, existing, for starters.

[Ecolitan]

You guys should try to sell Israel on libertarianism.  I bet open borders would go down really well with the Israelis.

Right, wouldn't want all those displaced palestinians to go back to farming the same land they did in the 40's.  You're right Israel could not exist w/o initiation of force on innocent people.

You're right, of course.  Don't Israelis know what's good for them?  Open borders would solve a lot of Israel's problems.  Like, existing, for starters.

I'm for it.  It's a government created out of thin air by a religious/ethnic group for a religious/ethnic for the express purpose of taking land away from a different religious/ethnic group and keeping it in the one religious/ethnic group for all time.  FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING RACE WAR I WANT OUT!

[ForumTroll]

Jews always getting pissed when you be dissin' Is Rael.

[Skeptical]

I'm for it.  It's a government created out of thin air by a religious/ethnic group for a religious/ethnic for the express purpose of taking land away from a different religious/ethnic group and keeping it in the one religious/ethnic group for all time.  FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING RACE WAR I WANT OUT!

I think we may have the new slogan for libertarianism in there somewhere.

"Israel has no right to exist.  Vote libertarian!"

[Skeptical]

Jews always getting pissed when you be dissin' Is Rael.

I know, right?  Crazy buggers.  Every libertarian knows nations have no rights, not even the right to exist!  National sui- er, libertarianism; an idea whose time has come!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation

A nation is a grouping of people who share common history, culture, language and ethnic origin, often possessing or seeking its own government.

[hellbilly]

It's been a long time since anyone came here with valid criticisms of the ideas expressed on the show (and on the forum). Like him or not, Skeptical does have good points and discussion like these are pretty important to prevent us from becoming too cozy with "dream world" ideas.

[Ecolitan]

It's fun when they come but this one has nothing unique to say.  He thinks freedom is pretty good except when 51% of people disagree.  He's a fucking retard.

[digitalfour]

Hell, describe a functioning libertarian state and I'll show you Santa Claus.

I don't support any state.

Every state is by definition a monopoly.

No thanks, I don't want to be part of your monopoly.

[anarchir]

[Skeptical]

It's been a long time since anyone came here with valid criticisms of the ideas expressed on the show (and on the forum). Like him or not, Skeptical does have good points and discussion like these are pretty important to prevent us from becoming too cozy with "dream world" ideas.

I'm kind of astonished by the level of ideological rigidity here.  The ideo-bot responses feel pretty canned, and there's no back and forth.  I had no idea libertarians were this, well, what's the right word?  Impractical?  Un-serious?  Unworkable doesn't even begin to describe the iceberg implied by the tip that I've seen revealed in this thread.  

I mean, how 'bout the terrorist with a nuclear weapon?  Is he a good immigrant?  He promises he won't use it.  It's his property, after all.  Who are we to tell him he can't put it in his RV and park it wherever he wants?  Can't be forcin' nothin' on nobody, after all.

The more I think about it, the funnier this gets.  1/1/2012: magically (because libertarians can't actually take anything over), America is transformed into a perfectly libertarian sta- no, wait, those are evil monopolies; America is transformed into a perfectly libertarian thingy. 1/2/2012: Chinese intelligence agencies confirm that pure libertarianism does indeed reign in America.  1/3/2012: Chinese paratroopers take over America; libertarians chant "force is wrong, restricting "immigration" is wrong" over and over.  1/4/2012: the United States is dissolved, and its former territory becomes an official colony of the Chi-coms.

But that's a bit unfair to the Chinese, they're a bit more bogeyman than is needed for my example.  Canada would make a better one, lol.  Libertarians: paving the way for a Canadian takeover of America!

It's fun when they come but this one has nothing unique to say.  He thinks freedom is pretty good except when 51% of people disagree.  He's a fucking retard.

A bit of a juvenile, isn't he?  Actual answers from Eco-boy to points raised, beyond "duh, he's a tard": 0.  I guess he can wrestle with his "51%" straw man all by himself.  (btw, I find it funny that libertarians here won't acknowledge people's right to form and abide by democracy)

I don't support any state.

Every state is by definition a monopoly.

No thanks, I don't want to be part of your monopoly.

So, how is law to be enforced?  No laws?  State o' nature?  How does your ideology replicate?  Oh, wait, I know, by remaining wholly and permanently theoretical; a permanent license to whine, maybe?

[Skeptical]

How do roads work in Libertarian Erewhon?

Is there a single person here willing to admit that man is a social animal?

Is there a single person here willing to put forward a brand of libertarianism that isn't a complete joke?

[gibson042]

I believe possession is 9/10ths of the law.  

E.g., eminent domain.  But the U.S. is pretty good on land ownership.  Check out some of those Pacific Island nations, where you can't even buy land, just a multi-year lease (in one case I believe it's 75 years); the state owns all the land, which is tribal/ethnic property.

But to answer your question, I have to ask a question: what is ownership?  Fail keep up with the taxes and the government will take it from you.  In that sense, yes the government owns it all.  What if a foreign country invades and dissolves the U.S. government, who's going to enforce your claim to the land?  These are all interesting issues but ultimately it comes down to force, doesn't it?

I suppose that sums it up. Anyone within the borders of the United States "owns" things only until members of the land's biggest gang declare otherwise. Which implicitly covers control of immigration... and taxation... and arbitrary regulation... and national service... and free speech zones... and military tribunals...

This accurately describes the current state of affairs, differentiated from totalitarianism only by the ruler's benevolence. But while I and many others here are appalled, you seem to endorse it. Are you familiar with Stockholm Syndrome?

[Ecolitan]

A bit of a juvenile, isn't he?  Actual answers from Eco-boy to points raised, beyond "duh, he's a tard": 0.  I guess he can wrestle with his "51%" straw man all by himself.  (btw, I find it funny that libertarians here won't acknowledge people's right to form and abide by democracy)

You can form and abide by whatever you like.  I find it funny that you won't acknowledge my right to have nothing to do with it.

[mikehz]

How do roads work in Libertarian Erewhon?

Is there a single person here willing to admit that man is a social animal?

God, not the ol' road thing again! Once more, there are private roads within a mile of where I'm sitting right now. I have driven over a hundred miles on a private super highway. Just today, I drove on a private connector street.

Enough of the "if the government doesn't do something, it won't get done" silliness! Government did not invent roads; they existed long before the first king took over the first road.

If too few people are interested in something getting done, then it probably isn't worth doing.