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Author Topic: Activism for it's own sake is silly.  (Read 6325 times)

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Pizzly

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Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« on: July 30, 2011, 10:46:52 AM »

Many activists speak as though the goal of activism is the activism itself. I hear this on FTL all the time, especially from Ian.

The goal should be to promote liberty in a specific issue, but too often people like Ian talk about activism like it's a goal in itself, that merely doing "activism" is a good thing regardless of the accomplishments. Hearing Ian talk like this makes FTL almost unbearable. I also hate when some other cohosts shoot down Mark's approach and perspective on activism, he seems to be the only sane person in the room so it's not surprising he gets a little angry.
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alaric89

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 11:13:47 AM »

Ian is nuts, but he also is capable of learning. One of these days some kingshit judge is going to get really silly, (life in prison for contemp or some such) and this counterproductive in their face and arena activism will stop. I just don't see the point of the passive aggression against authority that activism shows.
Activist "Come get me cop, look I am not paying a fee or breaking some pointless law!"
Cop "Uh O.K..... was just going to eat donuts today but if you really want your ass kicked....I mean fuck you couldn't just quietly do it instead of forcing my hand..."
State gets to prove that they can force you to do whatever.

sillyperson

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2011, 08:46:29 AM »

This has been the mantra of the "inside-the-system" activists since the start of the FSP.
The question is, how effective is your activism?

In looking at the political efforts, there is a list of real victories, areas where freedom for everyone in NH has taken decisive steps forward.

In looking at civ dis efforts, the "victory" is generally "raised awareness", or media mentions. Which may be useful, but I don't see actual gains for freedom. Indeed, I would say that it's been at best a mixed bag.

Fred

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2011, 10:53:51 AM »

Activism is not just for activism --

It puts pressure on the powers that be and speaks truth to power.

We may never know exactly when  a certain grain of truth gets through and actually affects behavior - but we know it will eventually yield results.

I say keep it up - its helpful for someone in another state to at least know there are some folks applying pressure.  It sorta makes my days more optimistic..
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2011, 07:55:57 AM »

Quote
we know it will eventually yield results.
Blind optimism...
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sillyperson

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 11:24:54 AM »

It puts pressure on the powers that be
What makes you say that?

I've had lots of experience with the legislature. I've seen plenty of cases where members of a legislative committee vote against a pro-liberty bill because they're pissed off with the "CD activists". I don't recall any instance where "outside-the-system" activists actually made a legislator feel pressured into voting one way or another.

Fred

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 12:04:23 PM »

Even blind optimism is better than pessimism.

I'm not thinking it pressures legislators - but it does put pressure on the police and judges.
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BonerJoe

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2011, 12:48:55 PM »

In looking at the political efforts, there is a list of real victories, areas where freedom for everyone in NH has taken decisive steps forward.

What about the failures, like the upcoming HB553 on wiretapping?
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sillyperson

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2011, 04:10:01 PM »

In looking at the political efforts, there is a list of real victories, areas where freedom for everyone in NH has taken decisive steps forward.

What about the failures, like the upcoming HB553 on wiretapping?
1) not succeeding here does nothing to reduce liberty
2) the bill is not dead; I'd say it still has a 1-in-3 chance of becoming law. not too shabby, and we can try again in 2013 if it fails

BonerJoe

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2011, 04:31:54 PM »

In looking at the political efforts, there is a list of real victories, areas where freedom for everyone in NH has taken decisive steps forward.

What about the failures, like the upcoming HB553 on wiretapping?
1) not succeeding here does nothing to reduce liberty
2) the bill is not dead; I'd say it still has a 1-in-3 chance of becoming law. not too shabby, and we can try again in 2013 if it fails

It's a failure because it actually reduces liberty. The language makes mere *possession* of hidden cameras a FELONY.

Why would you want this to pass? LOL.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 08:52:28 PM »

Non-violent disobedience (at least potentially) shows the violence of the state.  To be useful, someone who cares has to see that violence, or someone violent needs to be persuaded to care.  If one of those happens, it's not silly.
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alaric89

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2011, 03:01:24 AM »

If people are not angry enough to stand up at this point they never will be. Jailed liberty activist are helping no one. Cops have gotten away with murder many times now, even children getting needlessly shot or arrested. Politicians couldn't be more blatant with their arrogant evil then they are now. The sheeple don't care. The statists are holding all the cards, so we need to change the game or better yet, quite playing.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 10:29:25 AM by alaric89 »
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sillyperson

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2011, 10:11:27 AM »

Non-violent disobedience (at least potentially) shows the violence of the state.  To be useful, someone who cares has to see that violence, or someone violent needs to be persuaded to care.  If one of those happens, it's not silly.
Except that very often when it's been done (eg by the Keeniacs) it's actually made the activists look like wackos and the typical citizen comes away with one impression: whoever those people are, he does not identify with them.

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 12:46:20 PM »

Non-violent disobedience (at least potentially) shows the violence of the state.  To be useful, someone who cares has to see that violence, or someone violent needs to be persuaded to care.  If one of those happens, it's not silly.
Except that very often when it's been done (eg by the Keeniacs) it's actually made the activists look like wackos and the typical citizen comes away with one impression: whoever those people are, he does not identify with them.

Of course you and I have both been critical when we think the actions of activists are unlikely to be viewed sympathetically by some.  I know your criticism goes deeper than mine.  I think everyone should do the activism they think necessary/appropriate, but doing so when there's a potential to alienate even some free-thinking people should give them reason to re-evaluate.  In particular, I was critical toward Ian's automatic desire to sensationalize and publish everything, where not all activism (drinking games at city council meetings, standing in front of police cars) should be broadcast coast to coast.
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anarchir

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Re: Activism for it's own sake is silly.
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 05:24:50 PM »

Sometimes activism is useful at getting others to step up and join the cause and also at allowing new activists to dip their toes in the water, lose a fear of being active, etc.
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