The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => The Show => Topic started by: Pizzly on July 30, 2011, 10:46:52 AM
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Many activists speak as though the goal of activism is the activism itself. I hear this on FTL all the time, especially from Ian.
The goal should be to promote liberty in a specific issue, but too often people like Ian talk about activism like it's a goal in itself, that merely doing "activism" is a good thing regardless of the accomplishments. Hearing Ian talk like this makes FTL almost unbearable. I also hate when some other cohosts shoot down Mark's approach and perspective on activism, he seems to be the only sane person in the room so it's not surprising he gets a little angry.
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Ian is nuts, but he also is capable of learning. One of these days some kingshit judge is going to get really silly, (life in prison for contemp or some such) and this counterproductive in their face and arena activism will stop. I just don't see the point of the passive aggression against authority that activism shows.
Activist "Come get me cop, look I am not paying a fee or breaking some pointless law!"
Cop "Uh O.K..... was just going to eat donuts today but if you really want your ass kicked....I mean fuck you couldn't just quietly do it instead of forcing my hand..."
State gets to prove that they can force you to do whatever.
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This has been the mantra of the "inside-the-system" activists since the start of the FSP.
The question is, how effective is your activism?
In looking at the political efforts, there is a list of real victories, areas where freedom for everyone in NH has taken decisive steps forward.
In looking at civ dis efforts, the "victory" is generally "raised awareness", or media mentions. Which may be useful, but I don't see actual gains for freedom. Indeed, I would say that it's been at best a mixed bag.
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Activism is not just for activism --
It puts pressure on the powers that be and speaks truth to power.
We may never know exactly when a certain grain of truth gets through and actually affects behavior - but we know it will eventually yield results.
I say keep it up - its helpful for someone in another state to at least know there are some folks applying pressure. It sorta makes my days more optimistic..
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we know it will eventually yield results.
Blind optimism...
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It puts pressure on the powers that be
What makes you say that?
I've had lots of experience with the legislature. I've seen plenty of cases where members of a legislative committee vote against a pro-liberty bill because they're pissed off with the "CD activists". I don't recall any instance where "outside-the-system" activists actually made a legislator feel pressured into voting one way or another.
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Even blind optimism is better than pessimism.
I'm not thinking it pressures legislators - but it does put pressure on the police and judges.
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In looking at the political efforts, there is a list of real victories, areas where freedom for everyone in NH has taken decisive steps forward.
What about the failures, like the upcoming HB553 on wiretapping?
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In looking at the political efforts, there is a list of real victories, areas where freedom for everyone in NH has taken decisive steps forward.
What about the failures, like the upcoming HB553 on wiretapping?
1) not succeeding here does nothing to reduce liberty
2) the bill is not dead; I'd say it still has a 1-in-3 chance of becoming law. not too shabby, and we can try again in 2013 if it fails
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In looking at the political efforts, there is a list of real victories, areas where freedom for everyone in NH has taken decisive steps forward.
What about the failures, like the upcoming HB553 on wiretapping?
1) not succeeding here does nothing to reduce liberty
2) the bill is not dead; I'd say it still has a 1-in-3 chance of becoming law. not too shabby, and we can try again in 2013 if it fails
It's a failure because it actually reduces liberty. The language makes mere *possession* of hidden cameras a FELONY.
Why would you want this to pass? LOL.
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Non-violent disobedience (at least potentially) shows the violence of the state. To be useful, someone who cares has to see that violence, or someone violent needs to be persuaded to care. If one of those happens, it's not silly.
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If people are not angry enough to stand up at this point they never will be. Jailed liberty activist are helping no one. Cops have gotten away with murder many times now, even children getting needlessly shot or arrested. Politicians couldn't be more blatant with their arrogant evil then they are now. The sheeple don't care. The statists are holding all the cards, so we need to change the game or better yet, quite playing.
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Non-violent disobedience (at least potentially) shows the violence of the state. To be useful, someone who cares has to see that violence, or someone violent needs to be persuaded to care. If one of those happens, it's not silly.
Except that very often when it's been done (eg by the Keeniacs) it's actually made the activists look like wackos and the typical citizen comes away with one impression: whoever those people are, he does not identify with them.
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Non-violent disobedience (at least potentially) shows the violence of the state. To be useful, someone who cares has to see that violence, or someone violent needs to be persuaded to care. If one of those happens, it's not silly.
Except that very often when it's been done (eg by the Keeniacs) it's actually made the activists look like wackos and the typical citizen comes away with one impression: whoever those people are, he does not identify with them.
Of course you and I have both been critical when we think the actions of activists are unlikely to be viewed sympathetically by some. I know your criticism goes deeper than mine. I think everyone should do the activism they think necessary/appropriate, but doing so when there's a potential to alienate even some free-thinking people should give them reason to re-evaluate. In particular, I was critical toward Ian's automatic desire to sensationalize and publish everything, where not all activism (drinking games at city council meetings, standing in front of police cars) should be broadcast coast to coast.
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Sometimes activism is useful at getting others to step up and join the cause and also at allowing new activists to dip their toes in the water, lose a fear of being active, etc.
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Sometimes activism is useful at getting others to step up and join the cause and also at allowing new activists to dip their toes in the water, lose a fear of being active, etc.
Saying "no" to the state can be hard at first, but it gets easier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulmIBi9C5Y&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulmIBi9C5Y&feature=related)
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Sometimes activism is useful at getting others to step up and join the cause and also at allowing new activists to dip their toes in the water, lose a fear of being active, etc.
Saying "no" to the state can be hard at first, but it gets easier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulmIBi9C5Y&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulmIBi9C5Y&feature=related)
I have never seen the original of that movie, but I know what its about and I've seen some of the other old movies. I cant wait for this new one, it should be an excellent scifi. I remember watching the original movies as a kid, hiding behind the living room furniture up way past my bedtime :)
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Sometimes activism is useful at getting others to step up and join the cause and also at allowing new activists to dip their toes in the water, lose a fear of being active, etc.
Saying "no" to the state can be hard at first, but it gets easier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulmIBi9C5Y&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulmIBi9C5Y&feature=related)
I have never seen the original of that movie, but I know what its about and I've seen some of the other old movies. I cant wait for this new one, it should be an excellent scifi. I remember watching the original movies as a kid, hiding behind the living room furniture up way past my bedtime :)
The more anarchistic I get, the more I've sympathized with the apes in the third and fourth (this one) movies of the series. There were anti-state messages in the whole series, but seemingly no more than in this film.
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Of course! Why d'you think Gard uses the snippet in the intro for his show?
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If people are not angry enough to stand up at this point they never will be. Jailed liberty activist are helping no one. Cops have gotten away with murder many times now, even children getting needlessly shot or arrested. Politicians couldn't be more blatant with their arrogant evil then they are now. The sheeple don't care. The statists are holding all the cards, so we need to change the game or better yet, quite playing.
I agree with everything you said; in fact, I feel like I'm reading my own post!
I'll be 61 in a couple of weeks, and I have seen a gradual increase in state power for as long as I can remember, and a rapid increase since 9/11.
I railed against seat belt laws here in NYS when they passed them sometime in the '80s. I finally got a ticket about 10 years ago, and I told myself that no way in hell will the state get another penny out of me for not wearing a seatbelt, so I wore it except at night when cops couldn't tell. I felt like at least I was resisting to some degree. Then I started wearing it all the time.
Younger people do not feel this infringement on liberty because the seatbelt law was in place before they were born. This is true of many other laws also.
As James Madison said: "I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
It was true then and is true today. It is human nature to "go along."
I watch Judge Napalitano's show every night. He is the best liberty lover on national media that I'm aware of. But his daily obsession with the Constitution seems a bit silly to me. It's just another irrelevant piece of paper. Pointing out that this or that law is unconstitutional is just a big waste of time, it seems to me.
I don't see any way of turning this ship around. We are rotting from within, similar to the Roman Empire. Endless wars, debasing the currency to pay for them, widespread corruption throughout society, people are obsessed with hedonism, materialism, are rude, inconsiderate to others -- yet are ignorant about liberty and don't even seem to care about it.
Most people think that as long as they can go to the mall, a ball game, car race, concert, have tons of food available, can drive here or there, they are "free."
History is marching on and IMO Western civilization, as we know it, is on its way out. I won't be around in 50 years, but I'd bet my last dollar that it will be a very different world then. The "canaries in the coal mine" are warning about it, and if human history is a lesson then there is nothing anyone -- nor any group -- can do to reverse it.
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This is why I'm an agorist. I say quietly circumvent the state until confrontation with it becomes unavoidable, and then decide whether to be civilly disobedient or not. Why go willingly to the government's altar of human sacrifice if it is possible just to ignore the bastards?
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Well, yeah. 8) To the last two posts.
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Activism for the sake of activism? I disagree with this characterization. Maybe you disagree with the approach?
Individuals thrive on positive reinforcement and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Tearing people down when they believe they are living up to their ideals through activism or civil disobedience does not communicate your issue much less your SOLUTION.
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Well, as far as constructive criticism goes... I think that the Keene activists should attempt to behave in a way that tries to draw the community in, rather than making them feel like outsiders. On FreeKeene, someone posted a video of the public talking about what to do about Central Square. They seemed to blame the FSP'ers for the breach in tranquility that is going on in their town. I'm all for civil disobedience if it is over something important, but staged protests every two days might make one feel a bit oogy...
For instance, the video that they posted recently of Derrick and people marching around the square singing "Give Peace a Chance". I'm all for being able to smoke mj, but the marching and the singing seemed just weird, and I was just watching it. What were they marching for? the right to smoke marijuana in public? What if people don't want to be around smoke? Why can't they meet at someone's home? The people watching it likely were just as clueless on the protest. Maybe make some signs or something as to why you're protesting? I know it was well-meaning, and I am sorry that Derrick got arrested... But failure to assimilate to a new culture is a large reason that racism exists. That is likely the reason that many of the natives in Keene are starting to dislike FSP'ers. Try to preach your message 1 on 1 with people, rather than in large groups and protests.
Just think about it... How would you feel if a local church was doing what you're doing? Preaching through megaphones at those on the street, speaking in tongues in central square, and taking communion in public, it would just feel weird, right?!