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Author Topic: Abortion: When is the choice made?  (Read 4995 times)

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MrMiran

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Abortion: When is the choice made?
« on: December 14, 2010, 03:15:39 AM »

I'm about a week behind so I just listened to the podcast from 12/07/10 where they were talking about abortion.  Here's the deal... I have two main points, one of which was addressed on the show.

1) If you're an adult and make a conscious choice to have sex, then you accept the consequences of that choice and carry the baby to term.  You don't "undecide" later then kill the life within you out of convenience.  Saying it is a fetus and not a baby because it cannot live on its own is specious because even after birth a baby is dependent on its mother for life. (food, shelter, hygiene, etc.)

2) If you throw out my point #1 and insist it is a woman's choice... consider this:
If it truly is a woman's choice, why does a man have to pay for it if she choses life?  It's your choice, ladies... YOU pay for the kid. 
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alaric89

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2010, 10:43:19 AM »

Having seen the heartbreak of people who lost a baby in a miscarriage. Or known couples who struggled to get pregnant I agree that life starts at conception. However, I would rather murder fetuses than force woman to have children they don't want or create a market for illegal back ally abortionist. The NAP dictates that one can pay or help woman who mistakenly got pregnant to have the baby if one feels it is ones mission to save fetuses. I believe initiating force upon doctors who perform abortions or the person recieving one is a worse crime than killing a life with so little invested in it.
The abortion case was taken up again on the Saturday 11 Dec show for a short time when I called in. I had been drinking, so I sound a little slow. I was trying to get Ian to at least understand and respect how some people look at the life of a unborn baby. I failed, but Mark got to say his peace and I pretty much agree with his assessment anyway. Meg's points were pretty spot on as well.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 04:38:33 PM by alaric89 »
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alaric89

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 04:42:20 PM »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wEbt8qagDA&feature=feedu[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wEbt8qagDA&feature=feedu
Excellent reporting by Ridley.

SeanD

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 01:32:27 AM »

I'm about a week behind so I just listened to the podcast from 12/07/10 where they were talking about abortion.  Here's the deal... I have two main points, one of which was addressed on the show.

1) If you're an adult and make a conscious choice to have sex, then you accept the consequences of that choice and carry the baby to term.  You don't "undecide" later then kill the life within you out of convenience.  Saying it is a fetus and not a baby because it cannot live on its own is specious because even after birth a baby is dependent on its mother for life. (food, shelter, hygiene, etc.)

2) If you throw out my point #1 and insist it is a woman's choice... consider this:
If it truly is a woman's choice, why does a man have to pay for it if she choses life?  It's your choice, ladies... YOU pay for the kid. 

I must say I disagree with your point 1.  Until it viable ex-utero it is not a life - it is the potential for life.  I am not going to call a speck of cells smaller than the head of a pin human and equal.  After birth the baby is not dependent on the mother - it is dependent on anyone that will nourish it.  The father - a nurse or nanny is another popular option with the wealthy - adoptive parents the list goes on.

I do agree with point 2 with a caveat.  This truly is a womans choice.  Even if it were to be a vote only women should vote.  They carry all the risks and pain involved - guys just shoot a load and wait 9 months.

I will add a point 3 and say I am against taxpayer being stolen for abortion.

 
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alaric89

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 04:48:29 AM »

Do me a favour and check out a scan of a living fetus.
Here ya go.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFno5iOm84A[/youtube]
Just take my word for it that abortion isn't as fun and easy as the pro-choice crowd makes it look.
I am pro choice, in a practical sense, pro life in a real sense. Those things are indeed alive. (viable after 7 months without life support, with life support it gets lower every day) In a free society I would support groups that made it possible for babies to be taken to term and adopted. It wouldn't even be that expensive, babies are valuable without all the government BS on adoption.

dalebert

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 10:03:59 AM »

Just take my word for it that abortion isn't as fun and easy as the pro-choice crowd makes it look.
I am pro choice, in a practical sense, pro life in a real sense. Those things are indeed alive. (viable after 7 months without life support, with life support it gets lower every day) In a free society I would support groups that made it possible for babies to be taken to term and adopted. It wouldn't even be that expensive, babies are valuable without all the government BS on adoption.

You just about perfectly mirrored my thoughts on the subject.

SeanD

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 01:01:06 PM »

Do me a favour and check out a scan of a living fetus.
Here ya go.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFno5iOm84A[/youtube]
Just take my word for it that abortion isn't as fun and easy as the pro-choice crowd makes it look.
I am pro choice, in a practical sense, pro life in a real sense. Those things are indeed alive. (viable after 7 months without life support, with life support it gets lower every day) In a free society I would support groups that made it possible for babies to be taken to term and adopted. It wouldn't even be that expensive, babies are valuable without all the government BS on adoption.

Actually I agree with that.  Personally I think abortion is often a bad choice made to "fix" another bad choice and is used as post sex contraception.  Like you I would rather seen the baby brought to term and given to a family that can not have a child of their own.  However I am not arrogant enough to think my opinion should be imposed on an expectant mother.

My biggest problem is trying to determine when the conglomeration of cells goes from being potential life (I don't think life starts at conception) to being an actual life (as it obviously is in most cases minutes before birth).  Somewhere between the 2 extremes is the "line".  Personally the logical place is the point of viability.  I know people will disagree but this is the best I can work out for myself.
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alaric89

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 01:46:25 PM »

Another disagreement turning into simple consenses thanks to the NAP. I love that little concept, Wish I found it earlier.
I have met more pro- life people as a libertarian than I did as a Republican. Really, almost all my Republican acquaintances were pro- choice. With Libertarians I tend to meet pro- lifers, who would try to use positive reinforcement to help bring the babies to term, or pro- choicers who don't really have enough beef with the libertarian pro- lifer to discuss it. That was always surprising to me.

dalebert

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 03:27:18 PM »

I can't help but question the motives of people who would use violence to stop abortions (or even more so, to punish after the fact).  They seem more about making people suffer the repercussions of what they see as immoral acts than about saving children.  If they really wanted to save as many children as possible, they'd be working to remove the shame that they themselves perpetuate with regard to unwed mothers.  They'd be doing some of the things that you suggested to incentivize carrying a baby to term and putting it up for adoption.  They'd be removing barriers to adoption like reducing the bureaucracy and making it easier for gay couples to adopt.  They'd be encouraging more sex education and birth control knowledge.  There's so much that could be done that would actually be effective at drastically reducing the number of abortions, but those things wouldn't serve their deeper motives.

alaric89

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 03:59:56 PM »

 I don't remember. Maybe I thought if I was right and I could kick enough ass, some sort of karmic force would help me in life and I would get to go to Heaven with every other self righteous fuck that thought wealth and happiness appeared out of thin air.
Yeah that's the ticket.....
God I can be so fucking stupid.

Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 05:44:44 PM »

Can we tack a poll to this after the fact?

I think most of us, and in the general sense, most people think that abortion should be permitted before viability, and prohibited, unless under duress after viability.
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Fred

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 06:00:03 PM »

right dio - if the baby can live - it is killing......
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BonerJoe

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 06:10:01 PM »

wat
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 09:31:26 PM »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkoPDkjNHKc[/youtube]
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anarchir

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Re: Abortion: When is the choice made?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 11:38:40 PM »

right dio - if the baby can live - it is killing......


I wouldnt say killing or murder. also, what if it could technically be kept alive, but nobody wants it and not every hospital will be able to handle such a young baby.
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