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Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: gandhi2 on January 07, 2007, 02:07:52 AM

Title: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 07, 2007, 02:07:52 AM
Ben has some misconceptions about what the purpose of this board is.  He by far has the most negative karma, draws the most fire, and takes the most floor time, so I thought I'd ask people what we should do about it.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: zebraflood on January 07, 2007, 02:18:12 AM
Stop feeding the troll.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 07, 2007, 02:20:33 AM
Quote
Stop feeding the troll.
I'll get bored of it soon enough.  Already losing speed.  I just CAN'T go out without the last punch.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 07, 2007, 03:31:30 AM
Ben has some misconceptions about what the purpose of this board is.  He by far has the most negative karma, draws the most fire, and takes the most floor time, so I thought I'd ask people what we should do about it.

I put him on ignore awhile back and have seen no reason to take him off. Ignoring him is the best way. Every time he posts in a thread someone replys and derails it by always feeding into his "mutualist" a.k.a. socialist arguments.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: ReverendRyan on January 07, 2007, 03:49:36 AM
I will contribute one penny to Downsize DC for every BenTucker bitchslap from here on. anyone wanna match funds?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 07, 2007, 03:55:25 AM
I will contribute one penny to Downsize DC for every BenTucker bitchslap from here on. anyone wanna match funds?

As much as I like Downsize DC (have been a member since they came about) I would want to give money to the FSP.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 07, 2007, 10:51:51 AM
Ignored. It's just the same shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: One two three on January 07, 2007, 11:11:08 AM
Why not just go to NH and visit him?  He lives less than an hour drive from where the New Hampshire Liberty Forum will be held.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: zebraflood on January 07, 2007, 11:16:33 AM
Quote
Stop feeding the troll.
I'll get bored of it soon enough.  Already losing speed.  I just CAN'T go out without the last punch.

Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.

Yes I have.

Look!

It's just a flesh wound.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: cerpntaxt on January 07, 2007, 11:18:17 AM
Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.

Yes I have.

Look!

It's just a flesh wound.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 07, 2007, 12:06:21 PM
Why not just go to NH and visit him?  He lives less than an hour drive from where the New Hampshire Liberty Forum will be held.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll be going to the Liberty Forum and skipping Mr. BT's home, fun though that might be.  :lol:
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 12:15:18 PM
I just have him on ignore... what is the point? Well I don't have to hear him argue the same point 5,000 times only to end up back at this economic rent bullshit. I think complaining to Ian and Mark is a pussy way out and only stands to accomplish the same things we have been complaining that other forums do to us.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 07, 2007, 12:19:40 PM
I think complaining to Ian and Mark is a pussy way out and only stands to accomplish the same things we have been complaining that other forums do to us.

You are right it is. Ignoring him is the way to go.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 12:20:43 PM
Just make sure you find a corner of his land that he isn't really using. I guess that could be anywhere in his yard...
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 07, 2007, 12:21:31 PM
Are you kidding, I'm gonna camp on his lawn. Payback's a bitch.

I'll stop off and drop off some beer, hot dogs and marshmalllows for you on the way up.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 12:22:49 PM
I'll drop off graham crackers and chocolate so you can make smores.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 12:34:19 PM
Yay! I'll make the flyers... will he be handing out free money?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 07, 2007, 12:36:35 PM
I got my fat check yesterday.  8)
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 12:38:21 PM
I live next to an industrial complex, I wonder how big my check will be?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: bonerjoe on January 07, 2007, 12:39:47 PM
(http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7116/untitledjs0.png)
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 07, 2007, 12:41:14 PM
(http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7116/untitledjs0.png)

That's a big check.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 12:44:09 PM
Boner Joe... you don't have to post that in every topic you know.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: bonerjoe on January 07, 2007, 12:45:08 PM
Here's a Czech with big:

http://czechteens.deluxepass.com/czech_teen/nude_czech_teen/nude_czech_teen.jpg
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: zebraflood on January 07, 2007, 01:44:46 PM
Member login.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: cerpntaxt on January 07, 2007, 01:53:12 PM
Member login.
sounds like you aren't a member  :lol:
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: bonerjoe on January 07, 2007, 02:14:16 PM
Copy/paste/etc.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 07, 2007, 02:39:05 PM
If I ignored him, I couldnt see the rediculous lengths of his posts. 

I view them in the same way as the huge crosses way out in the middle of nowhere, in the desert.  Take a ride through the American west, you'll see 'em.  Probably elsewhere too, but thats where I noticed them most predominantly.  Why would I ignore that?  Theyre absurd, and it took much effort to construct those silly things, whitewash the rocks, carrying rocks around in the hot sun.

Amusing, as I float by in style. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 02:40:46 PM
I ignore him because of the rediculous length of his posts. It takes up less screen this way.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 07, 2007, 02:55:46 PM
Yes, the lengths of his posts are "RIDICULOUS". ;)
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 03:04:22 PM
Shush I'm drinking. You know I never check my spelling, too many distracting things in the room for that.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 07, 2007, 03:10:13 PM
Yes, the lengths of his posts are "RIDICULOUS". ;)

Don't be a bitch. :lol:
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: mikehz on January 07, 2007, 05:36:30 PM
Ben does not bother me much. For the most part, I ignore his posts, since if you've read one, you've pretty much read them all. He does represent the difficulty in spreading the libertarian cause: People who think the world owes them a living. However, at least he does not post offensive material, flame, or engage in other trollish activity.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 05:41:25 PM
So he doesn't post the fun stuff? Sorry you find life offensive Mike.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 07, 2007, 05:45:47 PM
Ben does not bother me much. For the most part, I ignore his posts, since if you've read one, you've pretty much read them all. He does represent the difficulty in spreading the libertarian cause: People who think the world owes them a living. However, at least he does not post offensive material, flame, or engage in other trollish activity.

I kinda wish he did, instead of hammering out all these unibomber manifestos.  Its a little unsettling. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: mikehz on January 07, 2007, 05:50:20 PM
So he doesn't post the fun stuff? Sorry you find life offensive Mike.

Oh, I don't mind the "fun stuff." At least, when it's appropriate.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 07, 2007, 05:53:52 PM
Ben does not bother me much. For the most part, I ignore his posts, since if you've read one, you've pretty much read them all. He does represent the difficulty in spreading the libertarian cause: People who think the world owes them a living. However, at least he does not post offensive material, flame, or engage in other trollish activity.

I don't think the world owes anyone a living...just to have their absolute right of self-ownership upheld in a world that needs to grant exclusive use of land inorder to avoid conflict.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Evil Muppet on January 07, 2007, 05:57:49 PM
How about a good flogging?  He might benefit greatly from a flogging.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 07, 2007, 06:06:57 PM
Only the people in his community could flog him. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 07, 2007, 06:07:08 PM
Ooooh flogging sounds fun, is there lube involved?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 07, 2007, 06:10:50 PM
We need to take bets on the exact time and date that his karma gets to -1000.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 07, 2007, 06:13:53 PM
Ooooh flogging sounds fun, is there lube involved?

Only for the spectators. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: cerpntaxt on January 07, 2007, 06:15:37 PM
We need to take bets on the exact time and date that his karma gets to -1000.
That bet would be flawed because we can all control the outcome... flogging seems more fun
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Mike Barskey on January 07, 2007, 08:49:14 PM
I voted to "Leave him be, he represents valuable opposition."

Despite his broken-record mantra ("economic rent economic rent economic rent"), he does have an interesting point now and again. I think he is not very good at debate - he doesn't fully address his partners' points and sometimes he ignores them altogether.

I almost voted "Don't respond to his posts, because it gets us nowhere," but I think it would be better to, in each topic, reply to his original post once and then if he repeats himself and/or ignore your points, then ignore him.

I think "Make his life miserable, God knows he's done it to us" and "Hunt him down and kill him, he's compelled us to labor for our existence for too damn long!!" are rediculous options, and not very libertarian considering he has not infringed any of our rights. Surely the last was made in jest, though.
 
To "Petition Ian and Mark to ban him, he is basically a spammer" is not wise, as it would be a step in the direction of turning this very free forum into a limited group.

- Mike
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 07, 2007, 08:57:57 PM
So far, I'm pleased with what I see.

Just so you know, Ben, the object of the game was not to create a petition to get your removed.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 07, 2007, 09:04:19 PM
So far, I'm pleased with what I see.

Just so you know, Ben, the object of the game was not to create a petition to get your removed.

don't flatter yourself into think that I really care...
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 07, 2007, 09:29:27 PM
What's he saying?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 07, 2007, 10:18:10 PM
This thread is not only lame, it's pretty childish.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 07, 2007, 10:25:26 PM
So is anime.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 07, 2007, 10:48:36 PM
So is anime.

Any grown man who watches anime and likes it is obviously fulfilling some kind of pedophilic desire that he's been locking away deep inside the dark reaches of his soul for many years.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: bonerjoe on January 07, 2007, 10:51:49 PM
What about 17 year olds who watch it?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 07, 2007, 10:53:36 PM
What about 17 year olds who watch it?

Same.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: One two three on January 07, 2007, 11:58:18 PM
I know ladies that watch it.  They even make recommendations.  If anyone here goes to porcfest, I'll introduce you to one.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 12:00:32 AM
You guys are fucking dumb.  Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

I believe you are confusing it with Hentai.  Get the two straight.  Hentai is animated porn, and it is lame, perverted, and pretty much for the pedophiles.  Anime is for anyone who enjoys animation in general (animation that even makes Disney's best animation seem amateurish).  In fact, I've never seen any American animation compare to even low-grade Japanese anime.

Eh, but I don't blame you guys.  I had the same misconception before I actually gave it a try. 

At least Americans are finally getting a clue, and are trying to catch up, with such blatant anime-imitations as Avatar: The Last Windbender, Totally Spies, and Teen Titans...all of which are pretty much garbage.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: bonerjoe on January 08, 2007, 12:19:36 AM
This is some funny sht.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 12:44:04 AM
Oooh...I got a great idea!

Since I know that pretty much everyone on this board (or at least 95% of them) have a negative opinion of [insert any name here] because of his differing opinions/views, I'm going to make a new thread dedicated to bashing him.  And since everyone will agree with me, they will all think I'm like totally cool, and I can be the coolest doood in Free Talk Live Forum Land.

Here's how it will go:

Man, [insert any name here] is a lame douche bag.  What should we do to him?

-Leave him be, because I'm lame forum troll who can't bare the thought of people with differing views.
-Don't respond to his posts, because I'm lame forum troll who can't bare the thought of people with differing views.,
-Put him on ignore, to reduce the signal-to-noise ratio, because I'm lame forum troll who can't bare the thought of people with differing views.
-Make his life miserable (because I'm lame forum troll who can't bare the thought of people with differing views), God knows he's done it to us.
-Petition Ian and Mark to ban him, he is basically a spammer (because I'm lame forum troll who can't bare the thought of people with differing views)
-Hunt him down and kill him (because I'm lame forum troll who can't bare the thought of people with differing views), he's compelled us to labor for our existence for too damn long!!
   

Oh man, I'm such a cool doood.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 12:46:49 AM
Everyone knows that the world would be a much better place if no one had any differing opinions/views.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 08, 2007, 06:13:31 AM
You guys are fucking dumb.  Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

I believe you are confusing it with Hentai.  Get the two straight.  Hentai is animated porn

I know what hentai is. 

I know what anime is.

When I said anime is lame, thats because I meant to say anime is lame.  Not hentai.  Anime.  Maybe you should get the two straight.  Hentai is equally lame, but since nobody mentioned it except for you, perhaps you need some time away from cartoon world. 

You silly fucking asshole.

Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 08, 2007, 06:23:10 AM
Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

How bout them speedracer scenes with the screeching monkey and the open mouthed guy

twisting
                               
                                                                the
 

wheel
                                 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 08, 2007, 06:46:47 AM
Yeah, you probably were.

They put it in everything nowadays. 

YOUre ... probablY on IT right noW
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 08, 2007, 09:46:53 AM
Quote
Since I know that pretty much everyone on this board (or at least 95% of them) have a negative opinion of [insert any name here] because of his differing opinions/views, I'm going to make a new thread dedicated to bashing him.  And since everyone will agree with me, they will all think I'm like totally cool, and I can be the coolest doood in Free Talk Live Forum Land.
You might want a permit for that thing, fellow.  I think that I have illustrated my respect for Ben's opinion more than many here...more than you certainly. If I didn't, I'd just wave him away, put him on ignore, instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt and continuing to offer real and solid debate.  While I've been open about my karma whoring, you've got me pegged wrong.  Nothing is fun about being a worshipper of popular opinion...it's more challenging to be personally opinionated and still popular.

Quote
Everyone knows that the world would be a much better place if no one had any differing opinions/views.
Exactly.  Well, actually, exactly not.

What I wanted to illustrate is that any community is going to be miles apart in what their opinions are, apart from a few things which are commonalities.  Can anybody name one way we can achieve this, if we take away each individual's means of choosing?  At some point, there is a common ideal...I think in this case, nobody would want to be removed for having unpopular opinions, so this community has declared that that action is not kosher.  Everybody wants to be able to post their opinions without fear of prohibition, so everybody is willing to allow that from each other person, no matter how much they want to just wring his/her neck.

Some people here feel like they have to labor for what defines their virtual existence.  Some may feel dispossessed or excluded, because they are constantly under fire.  In the end, we CAN NOT compromise the central ideal: freedom to post.  Can anybody draw a parallel to land-ownership?  The one ideal that SHOULD be a part of all communities, and when it's absent, we feel eerie and awkward, is CHOICE.  This more than any other ideal is most central to humanity.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: goten1201 on January 08, 2007, 09:51:12 AM
theres not really a point to banning.  i don't like him, her, it.  but i find it funny to read the warped views of a megalomaniac, lets me know what opposition is going to be like  in the real world.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:03:17 AM
Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

You obviously watch the American dubs.  No wonder you hold this opinion.  Subtitles are the way to go. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:06:18 AM
Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

How bout them speedracer scenes with the screeching monkey and the open mouthed guy

twisting
                               
                                                                the
 

wheel
                                 


If Speedracer is what you base your opinion of anime on, then your opinion is about 20-30 years outdated.  Yeah, early anime was pretty bad, I agree.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:09:28 AM
Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

You obviously watch the American dubs.  No wonder you hold this opinion.  Subtitles are the way to go. 

No, seen those too. The animation still sucked. The only decent film I saw was Akira.

If all that I had seen was "Akira," then I'd have a negative opinion of anime as well. 

Bill Brasky...give me a couple examples of modern anime that you have seen on which you base your opinion.  Cartoon Network animes are acceptable (like Dragonball Z, Naruto, One Peace) but will weaken your stance, being that they all really do suck, and are intended for a younger audience (which is why they are on Cartoon Network).

Cyro, too...just a couple.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:13:59 AM
Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

How bout them speedracer scenes with the screeching monkey and the open mouthed guy

twisting
                               
                                                                the
 

wheel
                                 


If Speedracer is what you base your opinion of anime on, then your opinion is about 20-30 years outdated.  Yeah, early anime was pretty bad, I agree.

Hell, early American animation wasn't too good either.  Remember the old black and white Bosco and/or Mickey Mouse cartoons, back when even the American animation industry was on a tight budget?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:19:32 AM
Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

You obviously watch the American dubs.  No wonder you hold this opinion.  Subtitles are the way to go. 

No, seen those too. The animation still sucked. The only decent film I saw was Akira.

If all that I had seen was "Akira," then I'd have a negative opinion of anime as well. 

No, Akira was the one I liked. I've seen others but they sucked. If you want examples; 'X,' Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and FullMetal Alchemist.

Cowboy Bebop was terrible.  Evangelion was fantastic, X was decent, and Fullmetal Alchemist was pretty good (I think this one would be perfect for the 7-12 year old age group).  Even still, if you still can manage to have a higher opinion of American animation, then we must be at a disconnect.  Either you have not really seen these, or there are some fucking brilliant master-work American animations that I have somehow skipped over. 

Hell, all of those that you just mentioned have fantastic animation quality.  There isn't even a single Disney animation that I can think of that even half-way compares (oh, and this modern computer-animation craze doesn't count).
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Zhwazi on January 08, 2007, 11:22:15 AM
What we need to do is find out where he lives, take a videocamera, knock on his door, and demand economic rent payment.

If he pays us, we get free money from the dumbass.

If he doesn't, plaster the video all over this board. He'll eventually leave.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:22:28 AM
And if you somehow missed the brilliance of the Evangelion story-line...wow...I don't know what to say, but...maybe you might want re-watch it. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 08, 2007, 11:27:04 AM
Quote
There isn't even a single Disney animation that I can think of that even half-way compares
Depends.  Do you count when Disney got its grubbies into Studio Ghibli?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:32:20 AM
Quote
There isn't even a single Disney animation that I can think of that even half-way compares
Depends.  Do you count when Disney got its grubbies into Studio Ghibli?

Haha!  Too bad Studio Ghibli films were all originally Japanese anime (and completely unrelated to Disney).  All Disney did was take a boat load of big name Hollywood actors, and dub over the original Japanese voice tracks.  That hardly counts as an actual Disney production.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:35:33 AM
Oh, and might I add...even the big name Hollywood act are fucking terrible at voice acting.  Every one of Ghibli's productions are 100 times better with the original Japanese voice tracks.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 11:37:46 AM
No, Akira was the one I liked. I've seen others but they sucked. If you want examples; 'X,' Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and FullMetal Alchemist.

Cowboy Bebop was terrible.  Evangelion was fantastic, X was decent, and Fullmetal Alchemist was pretty good (I think this one would be perfect for the 7-12 year old age group).  Even still, if you still can manage to have a higher opinion of American animation, then we must be at a disconnect.  Either you have not really seen these, or there are some fucking brilliant master-work American animations that I have somehow skipped over. 

Hell, all of those that you just mentioned have fantastic animation quality.  There isn't even a single Disney animation that I can think of that even half-way compares (oh, and this modern computer-animation craze doesn't count).

I like American animation if it's funny. I don't like cartoons for animation quality. The US cartoons aren't any better in animation quality, they're just amusing.

I got Evangelion, the religious things and crap. I got addicted to them damn thing, in retrospect thing in which it seems terrible. FullMetal wasn't actual that bad. It's just not fantastic.

Yeah, South Park and Family Guy are quite entertaining.  But, if you want story lines that are not afraid to tackle adult topics, like Religion, etc...you won't find it in American animation (except at a comedic level, like South Park).
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 08, 2007, 11:47:16 AM
No, Akira was the one I liked. I've seen others but they sucked. If you want examples; 'X,' Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and FullMetal Alchemist.

Cowboy Bebop was terrible.  Evangelion was fantastic, X was decent, and Fullmetal Alchemist was pretty good (I think this one would be perfect for the 7-12 year old age group).  Even still, if you still can manage to have a higher opinion of American animation, then we must be at a disconnect.  Either you have not really seen these, or there are some fucking brilliant master-work American animations that I have somehow skipped over. 

Hell, all of those that you just mentioned have fantastic animation quality.  There isn't even a single Disney animation that I can think of that even half-way compares (oh, and this modern computer-animation craze doesn't count).

I like American animation if it's funny. I don't like cartoons for animation quality. The US cartoons aren't any better in animation quality, they're just amusing.

I got Evangelion, the religious things and crap. I got addicted to them damn thing, in retrospect thing in which it seems terrible. FullMetal wasn't actual that bad. It's just not fantastic.

Yeah, South Park and Family Guy are quite entertaining.  But, if you want story lines that are not afraid to tackle adult topics, like Religion, etc...you won't find it in American animation (except at a comedic level, like South Park).

If I wanted serious topics, I wouldn't be watching cartoons.

Exactly.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 08, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
Quote
Haha!  Too bad Studio Ghibli films were all originally Japanese anime (and completely unrelated to Disney).  All Disney did was take a boat load of big name Hollywood actors, and dub over the original Japanese voice tracks.  That hardly counts as an actual Disney production.
The mediums are miles apart.  And it doesn't matter, both America and Japan outsources most the tweens to Korea anyways.  Hollywood animation was built for something different...and it's quite good at what it does.  Not to mention that both sides of the fence have contributed additions to the medium...take for example Iron Giant...excellent aesthetic, great technique and combining the digital effects with the character animation.  Probably my biggest issue with virtually all of anime is that it's got about 4-5 archetypal styles, and that's it.  Hollywood animation is constantly forced to redefine the medium, because audiences don't want to see the same chibi/bishou/shounen stuff.  Most of the bread and butter stuff from afar adds very little valuable contributions.  I wish that some day, somebody would take Inoe's brillaint style of Vagabond and make some anime that captured the aesthetic.

Quote
Oh, and might I add...even the big name Hollywood act are fucking terrible at voice acting.  Every one of Ghibli's productions are 100 times better with the original Japanese voice tracks.
Ok, dude.  I thought that the American dubs were quite fantastic, myself.  I don't prescribe to the entire "sub or die" mentality.  1) If I don't speak Japanese, and didn't grow up in Japan, I'm going to lose out on oodles of subtle cultural references that inevitably, the subtitles totally slaughter in the translation.
2) So much of Japanese language is incredibly subtle, and often words take the place of auditory cues.
3) A good English read will emphasize the words with emotion, something that is rarely found beyond the standard character archetypes in Japanese voice acting.

Hold on, wait a minute....I just realized that I don't care.  Why am I talking about this?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 12:04:17 PM
No, Akira was the one I liked. I've seen others but they sucked. If you want examples; 'X,' Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and FullMetal Alchemist.

Cowboy Bebop was terrible.  Evangelion was fantastic, X was decent, and Fullmetal Alchemist was pretty good (I think this one would be perfect for the 7-12 year old age group).  Even still, if you still can manage to have a higher opinion of American animation, then we must be at a disconnect.  Either you have not really seen these, or there are some fucking brilliant master-work American animations that I have somehow skipped over. 

Hell, all of those that you just mentioned have fantastic animation quality.  There isn't even a single Disney animation that I can think of that even half-way compares (oh, and this modern computer-animation craze doesn't count).

I like American animation if it's funny. I don't like cartoons for animation quality. The US cartoons aren't any better in animation quality, they're just amusing.

I got Evangelion, the religious things and crap. I got addicted to them damn thing, in retrospect thing in which it seems terrible. FullMetal wasn't actual that bad. It's just not fantastic.

Yeah, South Park and Family Guy are quite entertaining.  But, if you want story lines that are not afraid to tackle adult topics, like Religion, etc...you won't find it in American animation (except at a comedic level, like South Park).

If I wanted serious topics, I wouldn't be watching cartoons.

Exactly.

This is the typical American mentality.  Eh, I guess I can't blame you guys, though, being that 99.9999% American animation is crap, and is intended for children.  So, Americans are born into a culture that views animation as mere entertainment for children, and only produces animation that is such.  This attitude of most Americans is no less than quite expected. 

But, there are those of us who shake off this limited view on animation, and consider it as another facet of art.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 12:12:31 PM
Quote
Haha!  Too bad Studio Ghibli films were all originally Japanese anime (and completely unrelated to Disney).  All Disney did was take a boat load of big name Hollywood actors, and dub over the original Japanese voice tracks.  That hardly counts as an actual Disney production.
The mediums are miles apart.  And it doesn't matter, both America and Japan outsources most the tweens to Korea anyways.  Hollywood animation was built for something different...and it's quite good at what it does.  Not to mention that both sides of the fence have contributed additions to the medium...take for example Iron Giant...excellent aesthetic, great technique and combining the digital effects with the character animation.  Probably my biggest issue with virtually all of anime is that it's got about 4-5 archetypal styles, and that's it.  Hollywood animation is constantly forced to redefine the medium, because audiences don't want to see the same chibi/bishou/shounen stuff.  Most of the bread and butter stuff from afar adds very little valuable contributions.  I wish that some day, somebody would take Inoe's brillaint style of Vagabond and make some anime that captured the aesthetic.

Quote
Oh, and might I add...even the big name Hollywood act are fucking terrible at voice acting.  Every one of Ghibli's productions are 100 times better with the original Japanese voice tracks.
Ok, dude.  I thought that the American dubs were quite fantastic, myself.  I don't prescribe to the entire "sub or die" mentality.  1) If I don't speak Japanese, and didn't grow up in Japan, I'm going to lose out on oodles of subtle cultural references that inevitably, the subtitles totally slaughter in the translation.
2) So much of Japanese language is incredibly subtle, and often words take the place of auditory cues.
3) A good English read will emphasize the words with emotion, something that is rarely found beyond the standard character archetypes in Japanese voice acting.

Hold on, wait a minute....I just realized that I don't care.  Why am I talking about this?

Not only do American dubs typically feature terrible acting, the physical "sound" of the voice overs are way off.  Americans are hooked on this "always in stereo, in your ear" sound, and it is fucking terrible.  In American animations, no matter how far a character is away from the camera/viewer's position, or how noisy the surroundings are, you always hear the voices as clear as day, which makes it seem all the more unrealistic, even if the acting is decent.  Which points to another factor:  the shitty directing.  If the director is not smart enough to recognize this as an important factor, then the quality of the production is degraded.

And as for the subtle cultural references that you point out, typically the subbers will include foot-notes at the top of the screen if they feel that there is a reference that is needed to understand the situation, such as plays on similar sounding words, which don't sound similar in English.  Overall, I've never found this to be a problem.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: mrapplecastle on January 08, 2007, 12:24:08 PM
i liked ninja scroll
and i thought princess mononoke was ok
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: mikehz on January 08, 2007, 12:39:21 PM
But a well-composed cartoon IS more than just putting pen to paper.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: mrapplecastle on January 08, 2007, 12:39:43 PM
Cartoons aren't artistic. There's nothing artistic about anime, cartoons, comics or manga. Or maybe I'm one of those crazy bastards that thinks art is about more than putting pen to paper.
so what is artistic?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: goten1201 on January 08, 2007, 12:48:00 PM
Cartoons aren't artistic. There's nothing artistic about anime, cartoons, comics or manga. Or maybe I'm one of those crazy bastards that thinks art is about more than putting pen to paper.
so what is artistic?


A rocketship made of dicks crashing into a building of dicks  like on aquateenhungerforce.......
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 08, 2007, 01:51:59 PM
(http://www.imagetrove.com/Qstore/uploads/geiger_t.jpg)

(http://www.universalleonardo.org/media/100/0/foetuswombrc.jpg)

(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6471/theinseminationofmarybyoz2.jpg)

Dude, don't be gay.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: mrapplecastle on January 08, 2007, 02:56:56 PM
A rocketship made of dicks crashing into a building of dicks like on aquateenhungerforce.......
that was awesome
(http://www.imagetrove.com/Qstore/uploads/geiger_t.jpg)

(http://www.universalleonardo.org/media/100/0/foetuswombrc.jpg)

(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6471/theinseminationofmarybyoz2.jpg)
these are cartoons
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 08, 2007, 07:00:21 PM

Bill Brasky...give me a couple examples of modern anime that you have seen on which you base your opinion.  Cartoon Network animes are acceptable (like Dragonball Z, Naruto, One Peace) but will weaken your stance, being that they all really do suck, and are intended for a younger audience (which is why they are on Cartoon Network).

Cyro, too...just a couple.

They are cartoons.  Their purpose is entertainment.  Look, man-  I watch about three or four REAL movies a year.  Cartoons are twenty minutes long, make you laugh, and change the channel.  I couldnt name the best sitcom on TV, the best drama, or whats currently in the movies.  I ...  Dont ...  Care.   

I like the news, I like to talk to people if I can find interesting people to talk to.  I like the 'net.  I like stand-up comedy.  I like to see what people do and wonder why they do it if the reasons arent immediately visible.  I like card tricks and magic acts.  You'll notice all these things arent really able to be edited.  They happen mostly in real time, and it takes a talented performer to pull these things off...  With the exception of the net, where peoples creativity can be slowly tweaked and prodded until it provides some unique results. 

I'm not saying anime is completely devoid of talent.  I'm saying it's lame.  You're asking me to list a list that doesnt exist, because I see this quiff on my TV or on the net, and I might watch for a few minutes, and think "this is lame."  and away it goes.  Its like watching golf.  You would more likely catch me staring at a wall than watching anime.  But I wouldnt really be staring at it, I'd be visualizing where the studs are inside it, and how I would build a window in that wall, where the structural defects might be, where the wires and plumbing are, what the angle of vision from the neighbors house would be, where the sunlight would slant through, how it would look from the outside... 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Earthwormzim on January 08, 2007, 07:21:16 PM

Bill Brasky...give me a couple examples of modern anime that you have seen on which you base your opinion.  Cartoon Network animes are acceptable (like Dragonball Z, Naruto, One Peace) but will weaken your stance, being that they all really do suck, and are intended for a younger audience (which is why they are on Cartoon Network).

Cyro, too...just a couple.

They are cartoons.  Their purpose is entertainment.  Look, man-  I watch about three or four REAL movies a year.  Cartoons are twenty minutes long, make you laugh, and change the channel.  I couldnt name the best sitcom on TV, the best drama, or whats currently in the movies.  I ...  Dont ...  Care.   

I like the news, I like to talk to people if I can find interesting people to talk to.  I like the 'net.  I like stand-up comedy.  I like to see what people do and wonder why they do it if the reasons arent immediately visible.  I like card tricks and magic acts.  You'll notice all these things arent really able to be edited.  They happen mostly in real time, and it takes a talented performer to pull these things off...  With the exception of the net, where peoples creativity can be slowly tweaked and prodded until it provides some unique results. 

I'm not saying anime is completely devoid of talent.  I'm saying it's lame.  You're asking me to list a list that doesnt exist, because I see this quiff on my TV or on the net, and I might watch for a few minutes, and think "this is lame."  and away it goes.  Its like watching golf.  You would more likely catch me staring at a wall than watching anime.  But I wouldnt really be staring at it, I'd be visualizing where the studs are inside it, and how I would build a window in that wall, where the structural defects might be, where the wires and plumbing are, what the angle of vision from the neighbors house would be, where the sunlight would slant through, how it would look from the outside... 

So, basically...what you are saying is that after a mere couple minutes superficial glance, you are ready and willing to dismiss something, without question.  Sounds pretty narrow-minded to me.

Also, animes, unlike American cartoons, don't typically have plots that can be summed up in a single 23 minute episode.  Anime has the advantage of having many, many episodes on which to develop the plot, and characters and their personalities.  And to be honest with you, the character development that anime is able to take advantage of is one of the qualities it has that dwarfs even that that is seen in American block-buster movies. 

Most animes are 13 or 26 episodes long (1 or 2 seasons), and they use all of these episodes to develop the characters, and to develop the central plot.  Hell, my personal favorite anime is 84 episodes long...and I must say that it would be impossible for any American movie company to squeeze all of the events that make up the plot.

Americans have very small attention spans, apparently.  If an entire plot can't be squeezed into 2 hours or less, then Hollywood is not interested (usually)...and because of this, American productions are forced to rely on stock personalities in story lines so that they don't have to develop the qualities of the characters, and if there are too many events to squeeze in the two hour time frame, a lot of cuts have to be made to the original story as to make it so that it will fit...and all of this works together to destroy the possibility of having really great, deep, rich story-lines.

Watching a wall would have a significantly less developed plot, so I guess it would be perfect for you.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 08, 2007, 07:29:33 PM
I hated anime when I was in college. Now I like it. Go figure. Several of the ones I watch are far better than most TV series.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: ladyattis on January 08, 2007, 07:57:05 PM
I hate most anime and manga since most of it is just like American cartoons, full of crap cliches. I need something with substance like Wings of Honnemise and Princess Monoke. And what not.

-- Bridget
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 08, 2007, 08:02:11 PM
Ugh Pfff girly shit.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: ladyattis on January 08, 2007, 08:06:14 PM
Ugh Pfff girly shit.
Right... WoH is only about a young man that becomes the first person of his world to travel to space and what not. And Princess Monoke is just about Man's conflict with Nature. :lol:

-- Bridget
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 08, 2007, 08:09:20 PM
Girrrrrly Shit. :)
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: ladyattis on January 08, 2007, 08:10:12 PM
Girrrrrly Shit. :)

So Bladerunner is girly? :)

-- Bridget
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 08, 2007, 08:11:34 PM
Mehhhh grumble grumble. No it isn't girly.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: ladyattis on January 08, 2007, 08:14:38 PM
Mehhhh grumble grumble. No it isn't girly.

Good boy!

-- Bridget
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 08, 2007, 08:48:46 PM
So, basically...what you are saying is that after a mere couple minutes superficial glance, you are ready and willing to dismiss something, without question.  Sounds pretty narrow-minded to me.


It is narrow minded.  Ever eat dogshit?  How many times would you have to eat it before you can reasonably conclude you dont like it?  

Read my words closely, Mr 84 episode Long Attention Span.  I dont like much television at all.  

We clear so far?  Great.  I also dont particularly like asian media.  Its weird.  Their fads, TV shows, what they think is funny, not my bag.  I'm not knocking their culture, because I think asians are probably the superior intellectual culture in the world, by a large margin.  Their history is fantastic, their heritage, their morals...all great stuff.  Their fuckin cartoons suck my balls.  

Quote
Also, animes, unlike American cartoons, don't typically have plots that can be summed up in a single 23 minute episode.  Anime has the advantage of having many, many episodes on which to develop the plot, and characters and their personalities.  And to be honest with you, the character development that anime is able to take advantage of is one of the qualities it has that dwarfs even that that is seen in American block-buster movies.  

Most animes are 13 or 26 episodes long (1 or 2 seasons), and they use all of these episodes to develop the characters, and to develop the central plot.  Hell, my personal favorite anime is 84 episodes long...and I must say that it would be impossible for any American movie company to squeeze all of the events that make up the plot.

Well, whoop de fuckin doo.  Thats fantastic, a 48 hour bonanza of anime.  Sign me up, buddy, you've convinced me!

Actually, not.  Again, dont care.  I dont care one whit about the elegant process of anime, and its crafty 13 fold production practice.  However, when I do watch television, it'll be set to the history channel or discovery, and I could sit there for just as long as you'll enjoy your fucking cartoons, so dont get all lofty about attention spans, sparky.  Because when I am done, I will know another few facts about how the aquaducts worked, another few interesting facts about clock springs, a plague I'd never heard of, and how to carve a spoke for a wheel.  You, on the other hand, will know who stole Xi Lings magic feather.  

Quote
Watching a wall would have a significantly less developed plot, so I guess it would be perfect for you.

Perhaps you have never built a wall.  I'd be happy to show you how, if you've the wrists for hammer swingin'.  I'd love to get you out on a work crew and you could tell all the guys about anime while we have coffee and shoot nailguns around.  

I havent done a job in a while.  Built a damn nice deck a while back.  Ever build a deck, Sally?  Design it, build it, the whole shebang?  Its complex.  Sure, its not 84 chapter complex, I'm sure that was vastly more complicated than actually creating something safe to walk on, twelve feet off the ground, which would hold twenty people safely.  Oh, and the aesthetics, symmetry, balance, very pleasing to the eye.  Yes, watching a cartoon is definately superior to visualizing a design and creating an object.  
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 08, 2007, 08:56:37 PM
Quote
However, when I do watch television, it'll be set to the history channel or discovery, and I could sit there for just as long as you'll enjoy your fucking cartoons, so dont get all lofty about attention spans, sparky.  Because when I am done, I will know another few facts about how the aquaducts worked, another few interesting facts about clock springs, a plague I'd never heard of, and how to carve a spoke for a wheel.
Rock!  There was a special about the relations between humans and chimps the other day...pretty cool stuff.

Loboto-palooza!
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 08, 2007, 09:35:55 PM
Quote
However, when I do watch television, it'll be set to the history channel or discovery, and I could sit there for just as long as you'll enjoy your fucking cartoons, so dont get all lofty about attention spans, sparky.  Because when I am done, I will know another few facts about how the aquaducts worked, another few interesting facts about clock springs, a plague I'd never heard of, and how to carve a spoke for a wheel.
Rock!  There was a special about the relations between humans and chimps the other day...pretty cool stuff.

Loboto-palooza!

I love that stuff.  It rubbed off on my kids too.  They dont sit there and watch it constantly, theyre kids for petes sake-  but they do like it. 

I told 'em it's the Hitler channel, cause he's always on there and they put a H down the bottom for him.  They knew I's kiddin, but thats what they call it now, too.  So, we sit and watch that stuff, and Jeopardy, they get a buck for each correct answer, which makes 'em pay attention. 

Anime?  Nah.  Reality is too good.  Cartoons are Adult Swim, shit like that.  Freaked out stuff, Aeon Flux when it was first on TV, during MTv's Liquid Television phase.  Drawn Together.  ...25 minutes and done, no pain, a few laughs, and on with the show. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: mikehz on January 08, 2007, 09:41:16 PM
It's my preferred channel, as well. Although, some people call it "The Hitler Channel," since so much of their programming centers around WWII. I also enjoy Discovery and The Science Channel.

However, for the sake of domestic tranquility, I will watch a couple Netflix movies a week with my wife. There are also a couple of TV shows we enjoy together. Prison Break, for example.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: bonerjoe on January 08, 2007, 10:02:46 PM
Blade Runner is a mind fuck.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: EternityAblaze on January 09, 2007, 12:41:16 AM
Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

Wrong.  If this is your current opinion, then you obviously have only seen anime that is released on DVD in America.  Dubs are bad, agreed.  However you can't base your judgement on that. 

Why are the dubs bad?  Dubs are bad for several reasons:

1.  Shitty writers make shitty translations for the dialog and thus even if you are a good voice actor, you can not act with bad dialog.  This is shown in many American movies where you might see a good actor who only does a bad job because the movie's dialog is filled with one liners or simply shit at that.

2.  Most of the voice actors really do suck.  The Japanese understand that there is depth in sound.  When someone is standing far away, they sound far away.  When they stand in a hall, they sound like they are in a hall. etc..  All the voices in American dubs are practically in stereo and are crystal clear.

3.  Also the voice acting staff seems to be very limited in dubs.  Anime is definitely not a booming industry in the America's, so therefore the dubbing staff is based upon a low budget.  This causes the same person to be the voices for several characters in each of the American dubs, and unfortunately its VERY obvious.  However, in Japan where anime is a booming industry, they can afford incredible budgets and can have remarkable voice acting staffs.

---------------------------------------------------------

Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

How bout them speedracer scenes with the screeching monkey and the open mouthed guy

twisting
                               
                                                                the
 

wheel
                                 


If you are going to base your argument on anime from the 1970's, then your argument is fundamentally flawed.  Stop already.

-------------------------------------------------------

Anime is an art form that combines the best in quality animation, music, and story-telling. 

Yes, those 3 minute stills with badly dubbed voice overs are a wonder to behold.

You obviously watch the American dubs.  No wonder you hold this opinion.  Subtitles are the way to go. 

No, seen those too. The animation still sucked. The only decent film I saw was Akira.

Again, another person painting a vivid picture of how little you know about the anime scene.  If this is the best you have seen, then you have not seen anything.  This is like saying "Linkin Park" is the best rock/metal band.

-------------------------------------------------

No, Akira was the one I liked. I've seen others but they sucked. If you want examples; 'X,' Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and FullMetal Alchemist.

Cowboy Bebop was terrible.  Evangelion was fantastic, X was decent, and Fullmetal Alchemist was pretty good (I think this one would be perfect for the 7-12 year old age group).  Even still, if you still can manage to have a higher opinion of American animation, then we must be at a disconnect.  Either you have not really seen these, or there are some fucking brilliant master-work American animations that I have somehow skipped over. 

Hell, all of those that you just mentioned have fantastic animation quality.  There isn't even a single Disney animation that I can think of that even half-way compares (oh, and this modern computer-animation craze doesn't count).

I like American animation if it's funny. I don't like cartoons for animation quality. The US cartoons aren't any better in animation quality, they're just amusing.

I got Evangelion, the religious things and crap. I got addicted to them damn thing, in retrospect thing in which it seems terrible. FullMetal wasn't actual that bad. It's just not fantastic.

Yeah, South Park and Family Guy are quite entertaining.  But, if you want story lines that are not afraid to tackle adult topics, like Religion, etc...you won't find it in American animation (except at a comedic level, like South Park).

If I wanted serious topics, I wouldn't be watching cartoons.

Exactly.

Why? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Some random comments I want to make about this thread:

Firstly, ALL of the animes mentioned in this thread are MAINSTREAM.  Please someone, who actually thinks they know anime, dig something up that would prove you know the anime scene.

Ill give you a few examples:

1.  Mushishi
2.  Elfen Lied
3.  Hajime no Ippo
4.  Victorian Romance Emma
5.  Mai-Hime
6.  Air Gear
7.  NHK ni Youkoso
8.  Bokura Ga Ita
9.  Utawarerumono
10.  The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya

And thats just to name a few!  Now, I could go on and on but I won't.  These are non-mainstream animes.  If you have seen some of these, then maybe your opinion wouldn't suck.  Forming opinions based upon mainstream items usually means your opinion is very shotty and uninformed.  I can't put an opinion on rap music based upon "Lean wit me" nor can I put an opinion on country because of "Achy Breaky Heart".  Really, I have no foundation upon which I could make a solid opinion.  Well, an opinion that is at least worth a look.

Most all of your opinions are based upon very limited experience.  Making generalizations about anime because you saw some of the worst shows out is like being racist against a race because a few people of that group did you wrong.  Really, its just ignorant.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 09, 2007, 12:58:07 AM
You spend way too much time watching cartoons. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: EternityAblaze on January 09, 2007, 01:13:29 AM
I decided I'd be fair and post a list of anime that is considered Mainstream.  I have seen the argument of why anime sucks a thousand times and its always based upon the same animes.  Time and time and time again.  The people who swear they are "anime guru's" or "anime otakus"  always base this upon this following list.

If your anime experience is limited to only the shows in the following list, then you have a very limited and narrow experience with anime.

If your anime experience is over 50% covered by the items in the following list, then again, your experience is very little.

If there is even ONE anime on the following list that you don't recognize, you have a very limited....


1.  Akira
2.  Naruto
3.  Speed Racer
4.  Sailor Moon
5.  One Piece
6.  Transformers
7.  ALL of Studio Ghibli
8.  All the Gundam series
9.  Cowboy Bebop
10.  Samurai X (Rurouni Kenshin)
11.  X
12.  Neon Genesis
13.  Rahxephon
14.  Kareshi Konojo no Jijou (His and Her Circumstances)
15.  Saishu Heiki Kanojo (She the Ultimate Weapon)
16.  Samurai Champloo
17.  Fruits Basket
18.  Ai Mi Me Strawberry Egg
19.  All of the Dragon Ball series
20.  Full Metal Alchemist
21.  Wolf's Rain
22.  Chobits
23.  Golden Boy
24.  Initial D
25.  Pokemon
26.  Digimon
27.  Street Fighter
28.  Full Metal Panic
29.  Ghost in the Shell
30.  Great Teacher Onizuka (GTO)


Now, this is just a few, but you should get my drift.  Every single one of these anime's I consider mainstream can be purchased on DVD at Blockbuster or Bestbuy.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 09, 2007, 01:16:29 AM
Anime sucks.

Yes, I was into anime.

Yes, I was a fan of Japanese subtitles.

Yes, I was a fan of non-mainstream anime.

Yes, I was into all that goofy shit...

in the 6th grade.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: EternityAblaze on January 09, 2007, 01:21:06 AM
Anime sucks.

Yes, I was into anime.

Yes, I was a fan of Japanese subtitles.

Yes, I was a fan of non-mainstream anime.

Yes, I was into all that goofy shit...

in the 6th grade.

Judging by your statement, I'm implying that you mean "Cartoons are only for kids"

Why?  Back that statement up a little.  I'm very curious.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 09, 2007, 01:24:11 AM
Anime sucks.

Yes, I was into anime.

Yes, I was a fan of Japanese subtitles.

Yes, I was a fan of non-mainstream anime.

Yes, I was into all that goofy shit...

in the 6th grade.

Judging by your statement, I'm implying that you mean "Cartoons are only for kids"

Why?  Back that statement up a little.  I'm very curious.

I'm just relating to you my experiences with anime. Anime in particular, not all cartoons. I still love cartoons (i.e. The Simpsons, Futurama, Family Guy, Aqua Teen Hunger Force, etc.), just not anime. It's lame. It seems to me that mostly kids and middle aged weirdos are into that shit nowadays.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: EternityAblaze on January 09, 2007, 01:29:44 AM
Anime sucks.

Yes, I was into anime.

Yes, I was a fan of Japanese subtitles.

Yes, I was a fan of non-mainstream anime.

Yes, I was into all that goofy shit...

in the 6th grade.

Judging by your statement, I'm implying that you mean "Cartoons are only for kids"

Why?  Back that statement up a little.  I'm very curious.

I'm just relating to you my experiences with anime. Anime in particular, not all cartoons. I still love cartoons (i.e. The Simpsons, Futurama, Family Guy, Aqua Teen Hunger Force, etc.), just not anime. It's lame. It seems to me that mostly kids and middle aged weirdos are into that shit nowadays.

It seems to me you are wrong.  People who browse/post on forum all day long are usually wierd highschool students and/or middle aged weirdos who lack sufficient physical social relationships, and can only achieve them through posting in forums.  You depend on forums for social interaction, as with many other people.

With 4000+ posts, Taors, clearly one of your hobbies is posting/browsing forums.  One of my hobbies is actually watching anime.  What makes your hobby any less childish and/or better than mine?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on January 09, 2007, 01:33:44 AM
There is a cartoon called "Aqua Teen Hunger Force"? Or is that a joke?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 09, 2007, 01:35:28 AM
Anime sucks.

Yes, I was into anime.

Yes, I was a fan of Japanese subtitles.

Yes, I was a fan of non-mainstream anime.

Yes, I was into all that goofy shit...

in the 6th grade.

Judging by your statement, I'm implying that you mean "Cartoons are only for kids"

Why?  Back that statement up a little.  I'm very curious.

I'm just relating to you my experiences with anime. Anime in particular, not all cartoons. I still love cartoons (i.e. The Simpsons, Futurama, Family Guy, Aqua Teen Hunger Force, etc.), just not anime. It's lame. It seems to me that mostly kids and middle aged weirdos are into that shit nowadays.

It seems to me you are wrong.  People who browse/post on forum all day long are usually wierd highschool students and/or middle aged weirdos who lack sufficient physical social relationships, and can only achieve them through posting in forums.  You depend on forums for social interaction, as with many other people.

With 4000+ posts, Taors, clearly one of your hobbies is posting/browsing forums.  One of my hobbies is actually watching anime.  What makes your hobby any less childish and/or better than mine?

You can think I'm wrong all you want, I don't care. People post in this forum because they're surrounded by like minded individuals that might not be around them in their personal, daily lives, and this is the only way they can have discussions with them.

Your hobby involves watching some shitty cartoons that try too hard to be adult or 'hardcore'. My hobby is interacting with people of a like mind. And it's not hard to get 4000 posts here. That's been over the span of half a year.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: EternityAblaze on January 09, 2007, 01:40:49 AM
There is a cartoon called "Aqua Teen Hunger Force"? Or is that a joke?

Nope, there really is.  It is another example of the low budget crappy animation apparent in the United States.  Its crappy production is due to the prevailing opinion that "cartoons are only for children" thus creating the lack interest most Americans have in animations/cartoons.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 09, 2007, 01:51:19 AM
I have seen the argument of why anime sucks a thousand times and its always based upon the same animes. 

Hi, welcome to reality.  My name is Bill and I will be your guide. 

This argument you are about to hear is based on nothing but pure and simple logic.  It has nothing to do with a list of mainstream animes and the ones that are otherwise cultish and superior, according to the fans of this form of media.

Anime sucks.  I dont say it is stupid.  I dont say it is without talent.  I simply say it sucks.  It is a cartoon.  In my mind, it is the equivilant of any other cartoon, and since I have seen many cartoons that hold my limited interest in animation for the length of their plot, and I have seen anime (and cant name one damn title) I have arrived at the conclusion it is not of my liking, I have no interest in the subtleties and quirky fan-based nuances of this artform. 

Art is to be viewed by people who appreciate the medium, and THEN they derive the complexities of the plot and the specific illustrators/storywriters creation.  Since I have no interest in observing the medium, I wont spend the countless hours reviewing dozens if not hundreds of CARTOONS to determine which ones are worthy of praise, and which are truely shit. 

I have better things to do with my time, money, interests, and the like than to sit there and watch fucking cartoons.  Maybe I am sitting here whittling away a few hours, but I also have other pages open.  I am currently planning a trip, I have plans on studying some material later tonight or tomorrow which will help me arrive at my next station in life.  I'm having a couple beers, listening to some tunes, smoking a cig, reading the news, and I've got a wiki page open, my calculator is fired up, and I'm about to go take a piss.


Theres plenty of subject matter that irks me around here, and if I like or dislike something, I speak my mind, and thats it.  If it comes to a personal attack, I will respond, but otherwise, I have no inclinations on defending a form of media that is a personal preference.  Because its a choice.  Its a form of entertainment.  It is not the holy grail.  It is not a matter of philosophy or ideology or abusing people or in any way an infringement of my liberty. 

So, go watch your cartoons, AND dont try to rabidly ram your fucking rediculous interests up an unwilling participants ass.


Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: EternityAblaze on January 09, 2007, 01:58:25 AM
I wasn't trying to ram anything up anyones asses.  But when people make generalizations upon subject matter they know nothing about, its a bit annoying.  I know nothing about the stock market, but I don't go around saying its for nerds or rich people only.  I also have no interest in football or any other sport, but I don't go around saying that its gay, boring and intended for intellectually challenged jocks.

Although I think these things, I don't go around bashing it, ramming my opinions up other peoples asses.  You, however, go around bashing other interests that you have no interest in, thus you are guilty of ramming your opinion up other's asses.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 02:14:26 AM
Man, this thread has definitely reached the Godwin's law point.

I'm trying to make the anime debate a valuable case study of differing opinions within a community, which is founded on some central ideal, thereby tying back to my original statements.

I'm at a loss on how to do this.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 09, 2007, 02:15:45 AM
Im not ramming anything.  Its an opinion that is equally valid to yours.

Example:  It comes up in convo, my opinion.  "Anime sucks".  Are you the anime police, ready and willing to argue why it doesnt suck?  Why?  You're not gonna change my opinion, although your opinion is valid, you've taken an oppositional standpoint to refute mine.  It is unsolicited.  All you are doing is offering your opinion in a way to suggest mine is wrong.  It is an issue of personal preferences, and as such, when one person states his opinion while you are entitled to yours, you were not involved in the original dialogue.  Both you and Earthworm went on the attack trying to systematically list the reasons why my opinion would be invalidated. 

You cannot do that.  A list of your likes only serves to illustrate the basis of your opinion, it is ineffective and overbearing on your part to attempt to use that list as proof of your opinions validity...  Unless you are arguing among peers who appreciate your particular form of entertainment, anime in this case, and you are arguing which one is best. 

Its like saying Rock music sucks, and then you refute that statement by listing all the good rock albums you know.  So what?  I still think rock sucks, and no matter how many great albums you list, I will still think rock sucks and will prefer classical. 

(Note, rock doesnt suck)



 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 09, 2007, 02:19:34 AM
Man, this thread has definitely reached the Godwin's law point.

I'm trying to make the anime debate a valuable case study of differing opinions within a community, which is founded on some central ideal, thereby tying back to my original statements.

I'm at a loss on how to do this.

Use of the list, five yard penalty. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: EternityAblaze on January 09, 2007, 02:24:45 AM
Bill Brasky, while your last post is mostly correct, do you not agree that sharing opinions and defending opinions is the very essence of debate?  Otherwise why would debates exist in the first place?

Oh and I understand that my views are solely my views and yours are solely yours.  But when someone makes brash comments on subject matter they are foreign to, they are possibly deterring newcomers from developing an interest to that same subject matter.

Edited my post to better word myself.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 02:27:12 AM
Quote
Use of the list, five yard penalty.
It's that bastard non-conformist Earthwormzim.  Let's go get our economic rent from him.  Dispossess me of my right to hate, will you?

Can we get back to bashing BT?  That part was fun.

Quote
But when someone makes brash comments on subject matter they are foreign to, they are possibly deterring newcomers to similar interests.
Don't take it personal.  That's just Brasky.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: EternityAblaze on January 09, 2007, 02:31:23 AM
Sorry, but I did edit my last post a little late. My bad.

Anyways, lets be reminded that this topics derailment came from a personal attack upon Earthworm's interests, mainly because his avatar was depicting a "childish cartoon" in an attempt to discredit his view that the original point of this topic was childish.

Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 02:33:15 AM
Quote
Anyways, lets be reminded that this topics derailment came from a personal attack upon Earthworm's interests, mainly because his avatar was depicting a "childish cartoon"
Oh.  That wasn't me.  I was only trying to point out the object of my post wasn't to bash BT, no matter how fun or popular it is, and then all of the sudden, anime talk.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 09, 2007, 02:47:24 AM
Bill Brasky, while your last post is mostly correct, do you not agree that sharing opinions and defending opinions is the very essence of debate?  Otherwise why would debates exist in the first place?

Oh and I understand that my views are solely my views and yours are solely yours.  But when someone makes brash comments on subject matter they are foreign to, they are possibly deterring newcomers from developing an interest to that same subject matter.

Edited my post to better word myself.

Look at the argument, how it formed and where it eventually led.

I flared Earthworm.  He comes in saying how its lame and childish to bust a guys balls, when this thread was purely a rag session. 

So, I look at his avatar, and say "so is anime" .  (Page 3)

Jenny burned the barn down.  He goes off, and I still think it sucks.  He then tells me I'm confused and thinking of hentai.  I'm not.  He obviously is.  Voices chime in from the left and right, I still think it sucks.  You enter and list the whole fucking world of anime...  and I still think it sucks. 

So, instead of saying "nah, you suck, anime is cool." and letting it die after a few back-and-forths, now we've got six pages dedicated to how bad anime sucks, and a few guys who look like they like to paint their toenails. 

I threw it around a little, sure.  But dont blame me for making this form of media look creepy and obsessed.  You did that all on your own. 

"American cartoons are for lowlifes, you dont understand animation and ...."  give it a fucking rest.  Its a cartoon.  You like it, fine.  I dont.  Youre not gonna win any fans by explaining how fucking stupid all these people are because they like to laugh at an episode of Drawn Together.  I think Southpark is innovative and expresses some interesting viewpoints.  I'm not gonna lose my cookies if you were to say "Southpark blows".  Great, you dislike it.  Heres my huge list of why it doesnt blow:

1) cause I like it. 

See?  Not all insane, not demanding to be taken seriously as a fine piece of satirical humor, ad infinitum. 
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on January 09, 2007, 04:47:32 AM
Ben has some misconceptions about what the purpose of this board is.  He by far has the most negative karma, draws the most fire, and takes the most floor time, so I thought I'd ask people what we should do about it.
What is the purpose of this board by the way?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on January 09, 2007, 04:49:43 AM
Why not just go to NH and visit him?  He lives less than an hour drive from where the New Hampshire Liberty Forum will be held.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll be going to the Liberty Forum and skipping Mr. BT's home, fun though that might be.  :lol:

Are you kidding, I'm gonna camp on his lawn. Payback's a bitch.
That would be a great way to prove his argument wrong when he comes out to kick you off of it.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 07:08:46 AM
Why not just go to NH and visit him?  He lives less than an hour drive from where the New Hampshire Liberty Forum will be held.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll be going to the Liberty Forum and skipping Mr. BT's home, fun though that might be.  :lol:

Are you kidding, I'm gonna camp on his lawn. Payback's a bitch.
That would be a great way to prove his argument wrong when he comes out to kick you off of it.

I have exclusive use because I do pay my economic rent...
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: goten1201 on January 09, 2007, 08:16:03 AM
Why not just go to NH and visit him?  He lives less than an hour drive from where the New Hampshire Liberty Forum will be held.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll be going to the Liberty Forum and skipping Mr. BT's home, fun though that might be.  :lol:

Are you kidding, I'm gonna camp on his lawn. Payback's a bitch.
That would be a great way to prove his argument wrong when he comes out to kick you off of it.

I have exclusive use because I do pay my economic rent...

He pay's his "fair share" doesn't he?.........
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 09:49:25 AM
Quote
I have exclusive use because I do pay my economic rent...
To whom and how much?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 10:24:06 AM
to the local government...20/1000 and my house is worth $500K so $10K.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 11:51:11 AM
Oh, rich too.  So why is your privileged ass whining after how we all owe shit to the poor?

I also own a house.  I also pay my property tax.  I think that neither you or I should have to.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: One two three on January 09, 2007, 12:15:22 PM
Oh, rich too.  So why is your privileged ass whining after how we all owe shit to the poor?

A lot of rich white kids are like that.  Ben just never grew up.  I wanna be young forever too but Ben is going about it the wrong way.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 12:26:08 PM
Quote
So why is your privileged ass whining after how we all owe shit to the poor?

I don't think I have ever refered to owing the "poor" anything...I believe in the principle of EQUAL liberty based on the absolute right of self-ownership - this requires the sharing of economic rent between me and all of my neighbors ("rich" and "poor") as compensation from being excluded from what is rightfully mine to have an equal access right to occupy and thus to uphold my absolute right of self-ownership.

Quote
I also own a house.  I also pay my property tax.  I think that neither you or I should have to.

good for you...but my point is that you and others are somehow deluded into thinking that in a capitalist anarchy either everyone will be equally free to pursue getting "rich" or that you have to trade-off equality and freedom that then makes "rich" or "poor".

and I am here to tell you that exclusive use of land beyond Locke's proviso EVEN IN ANARCHY violates the absolute property rights we all have to ourselves.

this is an irrefutable fact based on simple logic and I understand why you would want to try and attack it as it leads to some very uncomfortable conclusions about your own current ideology.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 12:27:40 PM
Oh, rich too.  So why is your privileged ass whining after how we all owe shit to the poor?

A lot of rich white kids are like that.  Ben just never grew up.  I wanna be young forever too but Ben is going about it the wrong way.

I'll get back to you later...I gota run out to my personal trainer session.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: ladyattis on January 09, 2007, 02:05:13 PM
Ben, I pointed out before no one is ever equal. You won't be equal to Einstein or Michael Jordan. Or equal to John Locke or Thomas Aquinas. And etc. Equality is impossible. Equal treatment is also impossible due to that everyone has different wants and needs and dreams. To demand a one size fits all equitibility is IMPOSSIBLE DUE TO THOSE FACTS. GET OVER IT.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 02:11:43 PM
Ben, I pointed out before no one is ever equal. You won't be equal to Einstein or Michael Jordan. Or equal to John Locke or Thomas Aquinas. And etc. Equality is impossible. Equal treatment is also impossible due to that everyone has different wants and needs and dreams. To demand a one size fits all equitibility is IMPOSSIBLE DUE TO THOSE FACTS. GET OVER IT.

everyone's subjective version of the pursuit of happiness is equally valid.
everyone has the human capacity to act equally moral and thus are treated equal in the eyes of the law.

privilege (private law) is treating one subset of the whole unequal in the eyes of the law as the excluded's equal liberty rights are infringed upon without compensation.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 02:35:24 PM
Quote
and I am here to tell you that exclusive use of land beyond Locke's proviso EVEN IN ANARCHY violates the absolute property rights we all have to ourselves.
And I am here to tell you exactly how full of shit you are.  Not for your benefit, really, but for everyone else's.  First you define property rights to self however you please.  Then you claim that exclusion is force, the same punishable offense as pushing a man into a lake.  You just keep making a self-fulfilling prophecy.  You define things however you want, despite serious refutations and disagreements on meanings of these things, and once you have restructured the definitions, you point to how clear the logic is.  It's complete ass-buggery, lad.

Quote
this is an irrefutable fact based on simple logic and I understand why you would want to try and attack it as it leads to some very uncomfortable conclusions about your own current ideology.
It's not irrefutable.  You just misunderstand and misinterpret what certain things mean, so that it fits your logic.  And I swear to God the Holy, Ben, when your privileged white ass comes knocking on my doorstep, demanding how I have to even the odds that fate and nature dealt to me, I will resist with force, even if one or both of us die as a result.  I would rather die free than live by anybody else's terms.  You may argue the morality of it from here to breakfast, but I can assure you, there will come a day when the philosophy of force, as a necessary evil in every day life, is no longer tolerated.  On that day, the forcers and the forcees will meet to settle the score.  On that day, humanity will live forever or die abruptly.

The true test of morals is time.  Force cannot survive time.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Brian Wolf on January 09, 2007, 02:37:12 PM
.but my point is that you and others are somehow deluded into thinking that in a capitalist anarchy either everyone will be equally free to pursue getting "rich" or that you have to trade-off equality and freedom that then makes "rich" or "poor".

I love all of the different 'forms' of Anarchy. Anarcho this and that.

Anarchy is freaking anarchy people. It means that there is no government, therefore no one is going to be around to force any set of ideals upon us capitalist or otherwise.

In a anarchy Ben can start a tribe of Socialists and they can pay each other economic rent all day, Gandhi can start a tribe of Capitalists and they can buy stuff from each other all day, and I can start a tribe of People and we can be human all day.

Let's say that does happen Ben. What would be your problem with that? Would your tribe come knocking on my tribes door and demand your economic rent from us? Your tribe would be disappointed if they did. Because my tribe would not pay it. And I doubt that many other tribes would be willing to pay it either. It seems to me that if you have your own tribal territory then you would not be denied access to land and therefore my tribe would owe you nothing even under your own rules because there is enough 'as good' or whatever its called.

If your tribe came into my tribes territory and forced us to pay, then it would no longer be an anarchy, we would be living under your government.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 02:44:30 PM
Quote
Let's say that does happen Ben. What would be your problem with that? Would your tribe come knocking on my tribes door and demand your economic rent from us? Your tribe would be disappointed if they did. Because my tribe would not pay it. And I doubt that many other tribes would be willing to pay it either. It seems to me that if you have your own tribal territory then you would not be denied access to land and therefore my tribe would owe you nothing even under your own rules because there is enough 'as good' or whatever its called.
Ah, clarity!

SOMEBODY gets what I'm talking about.  I don't want to abide your damned social contract, you don't get to force it onto me.  There's a difference between allowing exclusive privilege to an individual, and leaving a "tribe" alone because to intervene would be to use force.  You are not allowing "privilege," simply because to enact war is to violate the fundamental human/rational tenet: choice.

And Brian is plain right.  If you would fore my tribe/community/family to follow your rules, then you are imposing your government on me.  It's just not anarchy anymore.  SOMEBODY had to grant you exclusive authority of force, but it wasn't me, so for you to use it on me is just as much of a raw deal as any other system of government.  I ask you:

"If authority must be legitimate, doesn't that mean that I must recognize it as a viable authority?"

If I hire a third party arbitrator, and then go to my defendant and tell him that this is what we have to use, is the defendant truly represented?  Unless both parties accept the arbitrator, then the authority of the arbitrator is illegitimate.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: ladyattis on January 09, 2007, 02:47:33 PM
everyone's subjective version of the pursuit of happiness is equally valid.
So a psychopath's joy in killing others is valid? :lol:

Quote
everyone has the human capacity to act equally moral and thus are treated equal in the eyes of the law.
Then why do we have people who are not morally competent to stand trial? They often are found to be called 'criminally insane.'

Quote
privilege (private law) is treating one subset of the whole unequal in the eyes of the law as the excluded's equal liberty rights are infringed upon without compensation.

Nope, because you are not equal to anyone else. Get over it.

-- Bridget
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 02:58:35 PM
Quote
First you define property rights to self however you please.

the whole classical liberal enlightenment project defines their fundamental tenet as some version of the right of self-ownership...

Quote
Then you claim that exclusion is force, the same punishable offense as pushing a man into a lake.

exclusion is force beyond Locke's proviso as it compels those you exclude to labor for what defines their very existence...it would be akin to being able to suck all of the air from around the body of another except the force manifests itself in a legal and monetary obliagtion that you are forced to pay rather  than in the death of another.

Quote
And I swear to God the Holy, Ben, when your privileged white ass comes knocking on my doorstep, demanding how I have to even the odds that fate and nature dealt to me, I will resist with force, even if one or both of us die as a result.  I would rather die free than live by anybody else's terms.  You may argue the morality of it from here to breakfast, but I can assure you, there will come a day when the philosophy of force, as a necessary evil in every day life, is no longer tolerated.  On that day, the forcers and the forcees will meet to settle the score.  On that day, humanity will live forever or die abruptly.

The true test of morals is time.  Force cannot survive time.

force is neither good nor bad - it depends on what ends it serves.
the obligation forced on those being excluded by your use of land beyond Locke's proviso justifies the use of governance as legitimate agency's FORCE in defense of the absolute right of self-ownership.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 03:08:55 PM
Quote
Anarchy is freaking anarchy people. It means that there is no government, therefore no one is going to be around to force any set of ideals upon us capitalist or otherwise.

historically anarchy has meant the absence of illegitimate authority and that inlcudes not only the state but all social and cultural institutions with hierarchy...

Quote
If your tribe came into my tribes territory and forced us to pay, then it would no longer be an anarchy, we would be living under your government.

I am a Nockian/Jeffersonian anarchist - local governance as legitimate authority is constituted to protect life, liberty and LABOR-based property where people understand that labor-based property rights are STRENGTHENED by voluntarily sharing the economic rent as an obligation to those you excluded for the benefit of the privilege that you receive for enforcing your exclusive title.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 03:17:02 PM
Quote
You are not allowing "privilege," simply because to enact war is to violate the fundamental human/rational tenet: choice.

there is no choice that you have as an individual via privilege to violate the absolute right to self-ownership of those you exclude.

Quote
If you would fore my tribe/community/family to follow your rules, then you are imposing your government on me.  It's just not anarchy anymore.  SOMEBODY had to grant you exclusive authority of force, but it wasn't me, so for you to use it on me is just as much of a raw deal as any other system of government.

it is not a question of government or not as in anarchy the exclusive use of land beyond Locke's proviso forces an obligation on those you exclude that compels them to labor for what is their very existence - to exist is to occupy land.

it is whether or not the use of force is justified and thus rightful.

in your case it is not and in my case it is as it is defensive in nature (exclusion is acting) and protecting the absolute right of self-ownership of the excluded.

Quote
"If authority must be legitimate, doesn't that mean that I must recognize it as a viable authority?"

you have to see that in anarchy you are using force against those being excluded and therefore it is nt a question of government or not but the just use of defensive force.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 03:29:02 PM
This user is currently ignored.

 8)

'bout time!

what took you so long?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Brian Wolf on January 09, 2007, 03:49:57 PM
Quote
You are not allowing "privilege," simply because to enact war is to violate the fundamental human/rational tenet: choice.

there is no choice that you have as an individual via privilege to violate the absolute right to self-ownership of those you exclude.

Quote
If you would fore my tribe/community/family to follow your rules, then you are imposing your government on me.  It's just not anarchy anymore.  SOMEBODY had to grant you exclusive authority of force, but it wasn't me, so for you to use it on me is just as much of a raw deal as any other system of government.

it is not a question of government or not as in anarchy the exclusive use of land beyond Locke's proviso forces an obligation on those you exclude that compels them to labor for what is their very existence - to exist is to occupy land.

it is whether or not the use of force is justified and thus rightful.

in your case it is not and in my case it is as it is defensive in nature (exclusion is acting) and protecting the absolute right of self-ownership of the excluded.

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"If authority must be legitimate, doesn't that mean that I must recognize it as a viable authority?"

you have to see that in anarchy you are using force against those being excluded and therefore it is nt a question of government or not but the just use of defensive force.

As you said, to exist is to occupy land. In the absence of a government there would be plenty of land for you to exist upon. There would be plenty of land for Gandhi to exist upon. He wouldn't be forcing you to not occupy some other piece of land, he would just insist that you not try to occupy the same land that he is on, or try to charge him for the 'privilege' of existing on that land.

If he took way more land than what he could possibly use to the point that you had no land to exist on, then he might be using a type of "exclusionary force", otherwise, he is just existing peacefully on his own territory.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 04:55:01 PM
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force is neither good nor bad - it depends on what ends it serves.
Machiavelli was wrong.  And so are you.

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As you said, to exist is to occupy land. In the absence of a government there would be plenty of land for you to exist upon. There would be plenty of land for Gandhi to exist upon. He wouldn't be forcing you to not occupy some other piece of land, he would just insist that you not try to occupy the same land that he is on, or try to charge him for the 'privilege' of existing on that land.
Oh, but no!  Ben is trying to declare that there could possibly be some time when there WOULDN'T be plenty of land!!  For a brilliant(if I might humbly state) refutation of the Dante's Inferno Earth Scenario, check this post:
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=10831.msg176125#msg176125

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Now, let's examine Ben's wonky universe, like a scene from La Comedie Divina, teeming with masses of bodies.  The average human weight is about 165lb, or 76.56kg.  Taken from a scientist, yet an informal source, the average density of the body is about 0.001kg/cm^3.  There are further studies that confirm a similar value for average human volume, done by automobile manufacturers for the purpose of interior auto space using air displacement measurement.  The volume comes out to around 76,560 cubic centimeters.  Written like that, it looks kind of big.  But convert it to cubic kilometers:

76,560 cm^3 * (1 m^3/(100cm * 100cm * 100cm)) = 76,560/1,000,000 = 0.07656 m^3
0.07656 m^3 * (1 km^3/(1000m * 1000m * 1000m)) = 0.07656/1,000,000,000 = 0.00000000007656 cubic kilometers

Even if we limit the height of the volume to a mere 100 meters this amounts to 1.94e17, that is 194,539,054,336,468,129, or 194 quadrillions humans!  To be appropriately condescending, that's enough people at an average height of 1.8m to stretch from the sun to Pluto 60,000 times, 37 light YEARS of length.  This population would take over 794 years to reach at PGR of 2.19%!!

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If he took way more land than what he could possibly use to the point that you had no land to exist on, then he might be using a type of "exclusionary force", otherwise, he is just existing peacefully on his own territory.
Yes, and I will admit that first-use homesteading, as well as law of usufruct, are naturally occurring phenomena.  Even if somebody did try to do this, it wouldn't last more than a twentieth of a part of his lifetime before he would be compelled by selfish needs to revert to what he could feasibly use.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 05:09:20 PM
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As you said, to exist is to occupy land. In the absence of a government there would be plenty of land for you to exist upon. There would be plenty of land for Gandhi to exist upon.

how do you know - would there be no economic rent attached to land in say NYC?

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He wouldn't be forcing you to not occupy some other piece of land, he would just insist that you not try to occupy the same land that he is on, or try to charge him for the 'privilege' of existing on that land.

would he be forcing those being excluded to labor for that which is what defines existence?

in other wirds, will the land he locates on have any UNIMPROVED land value?

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If he took way more land than what he could possibly use to the point that you had no land to exist on, then he might be using a type of "exclusionary force", otherwise, he is just existing peacefully on his own territory.

it is not a question of whether or not I have land to exist on but whether or not I have the right to exist on the land without having to pay for it or have it gifted?

Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 05:13:08 PM
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Ben is trying to declare that there could possibly be some time when there WOULDN'T be plenty of land!!

no - land with no UNIMPROVED land value (economic rent) attached to it which defines the extent of the self-ownership infringement of those being excluded...
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 05:14:53 PM
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it is not a question of whether or not I have land to exist on but whether or not I have the right to exist on the land without having to pay for it or have it gifted?
And that's just it.  You don't have the right to exist on THIS land, THIS earth, as this property is not inherent to existence in general.  The Plutonians have just as much right as you do.  The Kenyans have just as much rights as the Americans: None.  You have to earn it.  You have to labor for it.  You have to eat food, drink water, find a hovel, in order to live.  Everybody has ample opportunity to do the same.  We've been over this many, many times.

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no - land with no UNIMPROVED land value (economic rent) attached to it which defines the extent of the self-ownership infringement of those being excluded...
Then why does it matter?  There's plenty of UNIMPROVED land to go around for everybody.  The only problem is that big guns(in the form of government), are cornering off large sections for whichever they want.  Because they have the biggest guns, and people are willing to allow a free pass for them, the natural laws of homesteading and usufruct are being blocked.  Remove the big guns, and the natural order of things is stabilized.  Naturally, without force, you will get your damned ideal world....it will only take a bit more time for it to happen.  BLM, National Parks, military owned, city owned, state owned....the actual private land is not all that much.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 09, 2007, 05:36:32 PM
Funny. Hey Cyro that is the same thing I see when he posts.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 05:41:12 PM
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Funny. Hey Cyro that is the same thing I see when he posts.
Curiosity inevitably kills the cat.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 09, 2007, 05:50:25 PM
No not really, I can tell what he is babbling on about just by reading your responses.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 05:57:20 PM
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And that's just it.  You don't have the right to exist on THIS land, THIS earth, as this property is not inherent to existence in general.

now we final get the truth...

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You have to earn it.  You have to labor for it.

so a right needs to be purchased or gifted?

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You have to eat food, drink water, find a hovel, in order to live.

we've been over this many times...you need sustenance to CONTINUE to live

occupying land defines our very existence - you can't exist without occupying land *somewhere*

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The only problem is that big guns(in the form of government), are cornering off large sections for whichever they want.

and is this keeping the land of say NYC from having any economic rent attached to it?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 09, 2007, 05:58:16 PM
Wow I can bitchslap him even when I have him on ignore.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 07:39:27 PM
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now we final get the truth...
What do you mean finally?  I already stated this before: Existing in any specific location is not a right that anybody has.  Why?  Because to claim that it is would be a violation of all the other rights which are more fundamental.  You cannot have two rights which are in direct conflict.  Rights are only properties, and just as a metal compound can't be both magnetic and non=magnetic, humans cannot have two rights which are in direct contradiction to each other.  First-use homesteading can be a right.  But to state that you have equal right to come and use a previously occupied territory is a direct contradiction to first-use homesteading rights.  The Earth was not given to man in kind...it was given to whoever got there first.

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so a right needs to be purchased or gifted?
I just got through saying...this is NOT a right that anybody has, anymore than eating CORN is a right.  If you must violate any others right to choice so that they could eat corn, then it can be no right.  Existing on land CAN be a right, so long as a) you have first-use homesteading claim, b) you purchase the land from somebody with first-use claim, c) you do not exercise force to remove another's first-use homesteading claim.  The reason why you have legitimate reason to kill forceful intruders is that they are violating your first-use claim, the labor which you took to find and cultivate the place.

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occupying land defines our very existence - you can't exist without occupying land *somewhere*
No, it doesn't.  Godammit, Ben, this gets nowhere!  I'm not arguing this.  I'm arguing that it doesn't have to be somewhere ON THIS EARTH, ON DRY LAND, UNDER WATER, WHEREVER!! There are many places you could exist that aren't land....hell, even some that are capable of life!.  Sure you can exist without land.  Suppose there is a bubble of water in space, and within this water, life develops, we get intelligent beings from the water, who eventually leave and kind of float around it, with all the necessary oxygen, water, and food(from the water bubble) that they need to survive!  Hurray!  Reductum ad absurdo...or however it's spelled.  Suppose there are other humans that have naturally developed on some planet like Earth 5,000 light years away.  Obviously, they are existing, and obviously they are not living on the land as you defined it!  It's NOT central to our existence....only the existence which you are willing to use force to maintain.

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and is this keeping the land of say NYC from having any economic rent attached to it?
Absolutely.  Because it's nobody's birthright to live in New York, to enjoy the benefits of large city life, unless they agree to that communities social contract.  If I want to secede from amidst the urban jungle, then I MUST be allowed to.  Granted, it wouldn't be wise, because without paying taxes, I couldn't partake of all the benefits...which are TANGIBLE, IMPROVED LAND value benefits.  Everything must be accounted for...it is a mathematical impossibility that the sum of the parts can be greater than the whole.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Taors on January 09, 2007, 07:58:52 PM
Wow I can bitchslap him even when I have him on ignore.

Isn't it wonderful?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 08:21:00 PM
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to state that you have equal right to come and use a previously occupied territory is a direct contradiction to first-use homesteading rights.

and exclusive use beyond Locke's proviso violates the right of self-ownership...

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If you must violate any others right to choice so that they could eat corn occupy land inorder to have a right of self-ownership, then it can be no right. 

I fixed it...

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Suppose there is...

an infinite amount of inhabitable land of equal quality everywhere with travel between having zero costs - then exclusive use of land without any obligations on those you exclude make sense because you will NEVER have any economic rent attach to any specific locations and thus everyone's right of self-ownership will be intact.

alas we don't live in tooth fairy land!

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Because it's nobody's birthright to live in New York, to enjoy the benefits of large city life, unless they agree to that communities social contract.

no - because in their subjective opinion today the cost interms of the economic rent they have to pay don't outweigh the benefits. but unless you are saying that the cities are going to naturally depopulate there will always be economic rent to pay.

Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 08:32:38 PM
Hey, Ben...you believe that keeping IP rights exclusive would create an obligation to redistribute the benefits for those individuals who have privilege, don't you?  How does this extend to privacy rights?  Should you get to keep your email private, your real name, or your home phone number?

I'm willing to bet, like everybody else...when it affects you negatively, you'd have to restructure your beliefs to prevent personal pain.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: BenTucker on January 09, 2007, 08:49:00 PM
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you believe that keeping IP rights exclusive would create an obligation to redistribute the benefits for those individuals who have privilege, don't you?

I believe that law-based property rights to intangibles like IP can only come at the expense of labor-based property rights to tangibles.

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How does this extend to privacy rights?  Should you get to keep your email private, your real name, or your home phone number?

I believe it is a question of exclusion...if someone else had the same e-mail address or phone number as me then how will the proper communication that was intended for me be delivered?
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: gandhi2 on January 09, 2007, 09:02:53 PM
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I believe it is a question of exclusion
Not what I'm getting at.  Privacy rights are essentially IP rights...you have some information and you want to keep it a secret.  If somebody finds out this secret, and uses it to hurt you, they are held accountable by the law.

Maybe I should start a new thread with this.

I think that privacy rights are a good case study for IP rights.  If you can keep it secret, and bind others to a contract to keep it secret(Privacy Policies), then they must abide the terms of that contract.  If somebody breaks privacy policy, they are held accountable for breach of contract.  However, if you declare to the winds some information, whether it's meant to be private or not, then you can't claim any compensation if somebody capitalizes off of it by overhearing.

This can also be applied to first-use land rights.  If you can secure it, and bind others to a contract to its use, then you can keep it.  If you open your borders, and post no warnings about its private-ness, and have no sign of first-use, then other men must assume that it's available.  Therefore, any unimproved land follows the same rules that IP would.  It's a naturally occurring phenomena.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Hittman on January 10, 2007, 05:13:49 PM
So to the question of what to do with him. . .

How about creating a forum called "Under the bridge."  Anyone who consistently derails topics with the same bullshit is limited to that one forum with all the other trolls.  The ticket for admission could be, say, 300 bitchslaps.   

That way anyone who want to bother with him could, and everyone else could enjoy the party without this dipshit dipping his ass in every punchbowl. 

Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 10, 2007, 05:49:07 PM
I had thought about that bitchslap idea before... but then there are a couple people here that do actually contribute and have lots of bitchslaps from one or two people that just got pissed at them.


Inhale

Exhale

Time for another "sentence".
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: goten1201 on January 12, 2007, 01:36:42 PM
Can Ben Tucker be the first person to hit -1000?  join the movement.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: aquabanianskakid on January 12, 2007, 07:19:18 PM
I think he can be... Gene is next.
Title: Re: What to do with DonkeyFucker?
Post by: bonerjoe on January 12, 2007, 09:33:08 PM
I dunno.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: goten1201 on January 24, 2007, 03:44:06 AM
congratz ben is now at -1000   i was the last one to do it !  here's a special pic just for it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/goten1201/stopposting.jpg)
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: ForumTroll on May 25, 2010, 02:51:51 PM
.
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: anarchir on May 25, 2010, 02:58:49 PM
wtf is this shit
Title: Re: What to do with BenTucker?
Post by: Ecolitan on May 25, 2010, 05:39:33 PM
It's called a necroed thread and it's an individual equal access right.  Everyone has a right to this thread but space is limited so by posting here you've used valuable storage space and bandwidth and you are perfectly welcome to do that as it is your right but you've also deprived the next guy of that space and bandwidth so you owe Ben Tucker 25 dollars.  Have a nice day and thank you for your patronage.