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Poll

What is your Religion

Atheism
- 19 (24.4%)
Christianity
- 7 (9%)
Jewish
- 1 (1.3%)
Catholic
- 1 (1.3%)
Hinduism
- 0 (0%)
Buddhism
- 1 (1.3%)
Rastafarianism
- 1 (1.3%)
Islam
- 3 (3.8%)
Taoism
- 1 (1.3%)
Neopaganism / Pagan
- 4 (5.1%)
Satanism
- 1 (1.3%)
Scientology
- 0 (0%)
Wiccan
- 0 (0%)
Pastafarian
- 0 (0%)
Animistic
- 0 (0%)
All Religions :D
- 1 (1.3%)
No Religion / Not Religious
- 19 (24.4%)
None of these
- 11 (14.1%)
Pantheism
- 2 (2.6%)
Judaism
- 2 (2.6%)
Asatru / Norse Gods
- 2 (2.6%)
Discordian/Subgenius
- 1 (1.3%)
Pantheist
- 1 (1.3%)
Government
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Voting closes: December 20, 2035, 01:27:29 PM


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Taors

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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #135 on: August 09, 2008, 01:03:42 AM »

Name one benefit religion brings that cannot be achieved by secular means.

That's like asking to name one benefit homosexuality brings that cannot be achieved by heterosexual means.

no. sexuality is just a preference, it supports nor supplies any ideas. Believing in a religion requires you to believe things, its not just a taste or preference. Every religion requires you to accept or deny certain factual claims about reality. beliefs =! preference. I already outlined the hazards of religion, how it has indisputably been used to destroy and restrict scientific research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference

Preferences ARE choices you make concerning ideas and beliefs. If you want to start getting into semantics, let me know so I can stop debating you, because I'm not into that shit.

Quote
You completely failed to answer what I said.

No, I didn't. Your claim is that atheists can do anything a 'believer' can do, and I'm saying this is a non-sequitor. It's like saying that football players can do the same thing soccer players can do - they're both human, and they both kick around a ball...they just have a different way of playing by the 'rules', so to speak.

Quote
My point was:

1. Religion has facilitated negative acts that would have otherwise not occurred. There's no reason to burn books/lock up people that dispute what the Koran or the Bible says if you did not believe what those books say.

You can say this about anything. Big Macs have facilitated negative acts on people that otherwise would not have occured had they not eaten the Big Mac - BUT, it brings a certain joy to people who want a Big Mac! Who are you to say that just because SOME individual, SOMEWHERE, under the guise of 'religion' (the biggest blanket term I've ever heard - and quite collectivist of you to keep spouting it like it concerns every person on the planet who doesn't believe in just materialism), that burned some books somewhere, makes the rest of religious folk bad? It's nonsense, and as someone who I'd think wouldn't put everyone in some big collectivist umbrella, I'm kind of ashamed of you.

Quote
2.There is nothing positive about religion that you can't get via non religious means. Peace of mind, moral guidance, hope, every single claim I've heard for the benefits of religion can be found without having to believe in supernatural claims.

Non-sequitor, and completely meaningless statement. Anything an 'atheist' can do, a believer can do. Anything a believer can do, and atheist can do. This is a red herring argument. Believers don't believe because what they believe is beneficial, they believe because they believe it to be the truth. Also, 'positive' is entirely subjective. You might find something positive out of debating, Davi might find something positive out of prayer, and Porcupine might find something positive about wearing a Thor pendant around his neck to work in the morning.

You. Do. Not. Get. To. Tell. Anyone. What. They. Do. Is. Not. Positive. As. Long. As. They. Are. Not. Hurting. Others.

Quote
3. From points 1 + 2, at best religion is no more positive than non-religion, at worst it is harmful. Even if you don't accept religious belief has EVER led to bad choices, then at best it is still only as good as non religion, which makes it a useless set of beliefs. Not that beliefs need to have a use, I'm just making the point.

Oh, I certainly think 'religious' people have done some bad. You are not talking to a religious person, here, fatcat. I don't condone any of the murders, rapes, mind control, or puritanism and atrocities brought about by certain religious people. However, unlike you, I'm willing to look at individual actions and beliefs instead of the collective.

Again, you pull out the red herring. What may be good for you, may not be good for me. Preference, my friend. :)

And nothing is useless if someone believes it can work.

Quote
If you want to believe in some improvable deity, then go ahead, I never made the claim that you shouldn't be allowed to believe in whatever you want, this was not my point.

I never said you did. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Quote
Since most religions deal with inherently intangible and ineffectual subjects (souls, gods, heavens and hells that can't be reached in the 'living' universe, anything that can't actually be measured), it seems pretty futile to me to spend any amount of time considering something that cannot be proved, and has no actual effect on your life that can't be achieved via non religion.

And that works for you, and I'm glad. Except - don't say that spirituality has no effect on my life that can't be achieved via non-religion - because it does, and it's such a personal matter that you would know absolutely NOTHING about it. So don't tell me what does or does not have an effect on my being.

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The very fact that to accept one religion you have to dismiss dozens of others which have exactly the same amount of proof is enough to make the whole thing seem very asinine.

I think of it as choosing an operating system. You have Windows, you have Mac, and you have Linux. Which one are you going to choose? I could choose materialism, and leave it at that. I could choose Buddhism, which believes in both existence and non-existence. Or I could choose monotheism, and believe in one deity. Humans HAVE to choose an operating system (I suggest you get a hold of Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson, or look into some of his other works, and works by Timothy Leary), and whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves. As the chaos magicians say - Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted.

Quote
Now answer my original point please. One benefit that religion brings that cannot be gained by non religious means.

Already did.
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #136 on: August 09, 2008, 01:20:44 AM »

I absolutely don't have time to read through ten pages of posts, so I apologize for almost certainly being redundant here, but what about Agnostic?
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2008, 02:36:16 AM »

To believe that two religions which are contradictory cannot both be true assumes that truth is not contradictory. A person who believes truth can be contradictory doesn't have this problem. I'm not one of these people, but they do exist.

I was not indoctrinated. I went from agnosticism to polytheism to monotheism, developing my concept of God based upon direct experience, dreams, visions, meditation and a some psychedelics... I found Islam's concept of God to be identical to what I arrived at independently, and I found it's world view adequate in explaining all my first hand experience.

I have no intention of converting anyone... I can only speak and act according to my beliefs. The decision is yours.

I believe that Porcupine's gods exist, (I'm assuming you're asatru or odinist based on the Thor's hammer pendant) but I don't worship them. I don't consider them demons. Islam acknowledges these critters, and I've met enough of them to believe in them. I'm of the opinion that the Haavamal (the Word of the High One) was likely the work of a prophet. The Nordic poetic tradition makes it difficult to tell what the text originally said, but my favorite line from the viking scripture is verse 22, "An ill tempered, unhappy man; Ridicules all he hears; Makes fun of others; refusing always; To see the faults in himself." Advice I think any Atheist could benefit from.

The question about the benefit of religion is almost identical to Christopher Hitchens's classic challenge to religious audiences to tell him one good deed a believer can perform that an atheist can not. It's irrelevant. Believers are not superheros. Anything an atheist saw as a good deed or a benefit could be performed out of self interest. The only sufficient answers must be things atheists don't see as good or beneficial. The answer to Hitchens's question is prayer. An atheist is incapable of prayer. Similarly, the benefits that religion bring are spiritual, which atheists do not recognize as beneficial. By limiting your notion of good and beneficial to the material you prohibit the entire arena in which religion plays.

You cannot ascend the Sephiroth of the Kaballists by non religious means. You cannot achieve the ecstatic states of the Gnostics. You cannot attain the high Maqaam of Sufism. You cannot earn the pleasure of God by non religious means.

But you don't believe in these things... so the question is irrelevant.

Is there one benefit that atheism brings cannot be gained by religious means? Similarly irrelevant.

Truth is the criterion, not benefit. I hold beliefs that are not beneficial from a materialist paradigm... what is the material benefit in fasting? But every spiritual tradition everywhere, from Native American to Buddhist find spiritual benefit in fasting.

It's a silly question.
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2008, 04:50:56 AM »

I voted for atheism, because atheism is one of my religions. Liberty as voluntary civil government is another one of my religions.(Apparently, this poll does not allowed us to vote for religions that don't concern theology.)

I use the word "religion" in its broadest definition; the one that encompasses all the other definitions as subcategories:

"something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice."


Fatcat is confusing atheism with agnosticism. Having no good reason to believe in God is not the same thing as believing that there is no God, although the first belief may be a step toward the second belief.

While I don't claim to be able to prove a negative (that there is no God), I am devoted to the belief that there is no God and this is why my belief must be categorized as a religious one. In other words, my agnosticism on this matter is only theoretical. It does not reflect a lack of conviction in my belief. It only means that I'm open to the possibility of changing my beliefs upon the receipt of convincing logic and/or evidence if it ever became available. My religion is an agnostic one, but it is atheism, not agnosticism. This does not mean that I'm unsure. It only means that my religion is not dogmatic.

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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #139 on: August 09, 2008, 08:14:34 AM »

Since when does what "many people say" mean jack shit?

 :?

I should mention then that I am not referring to Porcupine's religious interests, or any others that do not attempt to convert members or disprove other forms of belief. But that pretty much cancels out the far majority of religious folk.

Honestly- there's no way I would attempt to catalogue every religion I could think of and explain my reasoning based toward each one! Now quit nit picking me coss you know what I mean.

JB- doesn't the jewish faith demand that non-jews convert to jew if they're going to marry someone who is already a jew? And it seems jewish people promote the homogenization of ethnicities and faiths outside juadaism, but simultaneously harp on the importance of preserving their own faith?
The orthodox folks say that on point one, but it's not considered that important (my mother never did any formal conversion and my family is accepted as Jewish at any synagogue I've ever been to, even the Chassidic one near my University that I like to go to -- they enjoy distributing free beer and wine to minors on Shabbat and really know how to party), but I disagree with the second point.  I'm not sure exactly what homogenization of ethnicities and faiths mean however.
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DogOn

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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #140 on: August 09, 2008, 10:55:50 AM »

Name one benefit religion brings that cannot be achieved by secular means.

That's like asking to name one benefit homosexuality brings that cannot be achieved by heterosexual means.

no. sexuality is just a preference, it supports nor supplies any ideas. Believing in a religion requires you to believe things, its not just a taste or preference. Every religion requires you to accept or deny certain factual claims about reality. beliefs =! preference. I already outlined the hazards of religion, how it has indisputably been used to destroy and restrict scientific research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference

Preferences ARE choices you make concerning ideas and beliefs. If you want to start getting into semantics, let me know so I can stop debating you, because I'm not into that shit.

Okay i meant preference as in a taste. Like I like the taste of chocolate, I don't have to think of any concepts, have any belief or claim, if chocolate goes in my mouth I like the taste, much like I'm sure some people enjoy the taste of cock.

My point is its possible to be have a preference/taste for homosexuality, and not even be aware the concept exist. Religion is a set of ideas, in order for you to believe in a religion you have to be aware of the concepts otherwise you don't have them to believe in.


Fatcat is confusing atheism with agnosticism. Having no good reason to believe in God is not the same thing as believing that there is no God, although the first belief may be a step toward the second belief.

No I'm not. People keep making claims about my beliefs and I keep correcting them.

I've made the point several times that Atheism does not mean believing there is no god.

Atheism means lack of theist beliefs. It does not mean disbelieving theist beliefs. There is a marked difference between not believing something is true and believing it is not true.

Agnosticism refers to forms of knowledge. If we go by the strictest sense of knowledge, I am an Agnostic Atheist. I cannot possibly claim to know for sure there are no supernatural entities as I would have to have total knowledge of everything to say for sure, but I do not believe the claims of any supernatural entities have sufficient evidence for me to believe.

Now, if we are talking in a more practical, day to day form of knowledge, then I actively believe there is no god, based on a few things. Obviously its impossible for me to have the necessary knowledge to fully support this belief, so if we cut down to the wire I will accept I do not know, but I believe no super natural beings exist, just like I believe no leprechauns exist, even though there may be one on some distant planet somewhere. I have made this distinction between Atheism and Agnosticism several times during this thread, and have made my position on what I class my beliefs several times as well. If you disagree with my definitions then fair enough, but it does not change the ones I will use.

You're making far too many blanket statements to be correct.  Judaism recognizes that there are other religions out there and that just because other people are not Jewish doesn't mean they're evil or "sinners" or any stupid crap like that.  Although it seems that you in your atheist religion believe that about Jews.  Strange how the atheist is more dogmatic and religious about his beliefs than several of the religious people here.

See this is my main point I tried to make. I never claimed that all religions say all other religions are wrong. I am fully aware there are many sects of traditional and modern organised/non organised religions that are accepting of other beliefs.

My point is of one of objective reality, how we measure reality. If one person says there is only one god and nothing else, and you say that his god exists but others do, you are contradicting each other and cannot be both simultaneously right.

Any claims that things can be contradictory and true at the same time, then they aren't contradictory, merely conflicting. Heres the difference:

It is possible for some supernatural entity to exist in one form and several others. Now even though attributes of the form may conflict with each other, if all those entities can exist at the same time without making it impossible for others to exist, then there is no contradiction.

My hand cannot be 100 celcius and 0 celcius at the same time, from the fact that each state makes the other state impossible to exist, this is contradiction, and impossible to occur in reality except in abstract concept. This is what I mean by contradiction.

If you think that there is more than one god/forms of supernatural entities, then that is your belief, but it is not possible for that belief, and the belief that there is only one god and no others to be true at the same time. You can accept that their god may be real, but if part of their religion means part of yours would not be true, then you cannot accept both religions to be true.

Quote
You're making far too many blanket statements to be correct.  Judaism recognizes that there are other religions out there and that just because other people are not Jewish doesn't mean they're evil or "sinners" or any stupid crap like that.

Show me where I made this point and I will retract it. I made no claims whether religions dislike or denounce other religions, I have merely claimed that contradictory beliefs about reality cannot be simultaneously true, or they are then not contradictory, by very definition.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 11:07:37 AM by fatcat »
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #141 on: August 09, 2008, 11:15:41 AM »

The way I see it, accepting other people's religious identities is not a problem that is even mildly tangential to polytheism.  Other people have different ways and different superstitions of acknowledging God.  Of course I note that many are pretty silly, but as long as they're cool or don't bother me, why should I care about their superstitions?  I'm not trying to convert them and I can't see anything wrong with other people practicing different rituals or calling their god by a different name than I do.  Of course I find it ridiculous that Indians would rather starve and worship cows than eat them, but I've never been hurt by them doing so.

What I see many atheists doing is proselytizing others to join their religion.  And I agree with Diogynese the Cynic that pretty much anything dogmatized can be religious.  For example, I've referred to Environmentalism as being a religion as well.

I think I pointed out pretty decently earlier of what I see the difference of Atheist vs. Non-theist, but I'll point out one more thing on that that follows up with another person's comments: Atheists claim dogmatically in the positive that there is no god.  Non-theists don't give a damn one way or the other.  That's the most simplistic way I can spell out the differences.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 11:17:30 AM by JB »
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #142 on: August 09, 2008, 11:29:23 AM »

Quote
First recorded usage of Non-theism is by G. J. Holyoake in 1852,[2] who introduces it because

    "Mr. [Charles] Southwell has taken an objection to the term Atheism. We are glad he has. We have disused it a long time [...]. We disuse it, because Atheist is a worn-out word. Both the ancients and the moderns have understood by it one without God, and also without morality. Thus the term connotes more than any well-informed and earnest person accepting it ever included in it; that is, the word carries with it associations of immorality, which have been repudiated by the Atheist as seriously as by the Christian. Non-theism is a term less open to the same misunderstanding, as it implies the simple non-acceptance of the Theist's explanation of the origin and government of the world."
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DogOn

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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #143 on: August 09, 2008, 11:54:12 AM »

The way I see it, accepting other people's religious identities is not a problem that is even mildly tangential to polytheism.  Other people have different ways and different superstitions of acknowledging God.  Of course I note that many are pretty silly, but as long as they're cool or don't bother me, why should I care about their superstitions?  I'm not trying to convert them and I can't see anything wrong with other people practicing different rituals or calling their god by a different name than I do.  Of course I find it ridiculous that Indians would rather starve and worship cows than eat them, but I've never been hurt by them doing so.

What I see many atheists doing is proselytizing others to join their religion.  And I agree with Diogynese the Cynic that pretty much anything dogmatized can be religious.  For example, I've referred to Environmentalism as being a religion as well.

I think I pointed out pretty decently earlier of what I see the difference of Atheist vs. Non-theist, but I'll point out one more thing on that that follows up with another person's comments: Atheists claim dogmatically in the positive that there is no god.  Non-theists don't give a damn one way or the other.  That's the most simplistic way I can spell out the differences.

I was not talking about being respectful, to other beliefs, I'm talking about claims of truth. I fully accept it is possible to accept someones beliefs as neutral, positive, whatever, and not agree with their claims about the nature of those beliefs, but some people here are claiming that multiple contradictory beliefs can be true at the same time, which is not possible. What I believe these people are really getting at is that its possible for these multiple supernatural entities to exist as form of some greater whole, or something else, although I am only assuming because no one has outlined the exact nature of their beliefs.

Quote
Atheists claim dogmatically in the positive that there is no god.

*sigh*

Atheism is not a religion, its a lack of belief, what you're talking about is anti-theism. A lot of Atheists make anti-theists claims, it doesn't make it an atheist attribute, just like a lot of people for drug freedom use drugs, it does not mean they are mutually inclusive.

Have a look back through this thread and see how many times I've addressed this. Atheist means lack of belief, not belief there is no god.

I don't know ANY atheist who claims to know to 100% certainty that no god exist. It would require a COMPLETE knowledge of the universe to say for sure either way. Now I know alot of Atheists who will claim in a very practical and general way that there is no god, much like I would claim there are no pixies, but any I have ever met would claim that they cannot be certain, as any reasonable person would admit it would be impossible to do so.

What I see most atheists railing against is the belief in a god when sufficient evidence has not been presented. Its much more logical to believe something doesn't exist when there is no evidence, than to believe something does when there is no evidence.

I am an anti-theist, because I see many religious people using their religion as a vehicle for the restriction of science and liberty, and also I see it leading to bad choices, like praying for your diabetic daughter instead of getting her to the fucking hospital and getting her insulin. Also, at a fundamental level, I do not believe any religion has presented enough evidence to believe in over any other religion, and I think it is a result of emotional based irrational thinking that one could accept such a claim with such insufficient evidence, although I will not assume your justifications are incorrect until I have heard them. If you do not agree with me then tell me why. You may think I'm intolerant and arrogant, I may think you irrational and misguided, but lets move on from that point and actually get the exchange of ideas going on.

Now it is still incorrect to claim absolute certainty there are no gods. I don't, absolute certainty is impossible for a human, but there is a lot of evidence to say that put a group of humans in an area, and after a long enough time they will start inventing gods/other supernatural claims. This isn't enough to claim every single religious claim is just made up, but its a strong indicator, and until I see any evidence for a god that isn't a really old book, my default position is non belief, and depending on the day I may claim to believe that there are no gods, although as I have repeatedly mentioned throughout this thread there is no way for me to be sure, so really I just don't believe theist claims, I don't actively believe them to be untrue.

The, "I don't have to justify my beliefs to you" stance seems really bizarre to me. I'm fully aware you don't have to, its not some intellectual uppercut to remind me of the fact, but we're on a discussion forum, people who claim I am too intolerant/irrational to debate with are still responding to my posts, if your beliefs have merit you should care about justifying them, although thats just my personal opinion. I appear ignorant for assuming what other peoples beliefs are, but what other choice do I have if people are responding to me but refusing to say what they actually believe.

If you would like to outline what you specific beliefs are, and what justification you have for those beliefs, I would like to hear it, and maybe we could talk about what we each would consider sufficient evidence/justification to form such a belief, although I am not hopeful as I am far to much of an arrogant, intolerant atheist to ever have a rational conversation.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 12:23:40 PM by fatcat »
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #144 on: August 09, 2008, 12:11:57 PM »

I don't know ANY atheist who claims to know to 100% certainty that no god exist. It would require a COMPLETE knowledge of the universe to say for sure either way. Now I know alot of Atheists who will claim in a very practical and general way that there is no god, but any I have ever met would claim that they cannot be certain, as any reasonable person would admit it would be impossible to do so.

I guess you've never taken a spin over to the Skepticality or Skeptic's Guide threads.   Self styled atheists there purport to know with certainty that there is no god, and furthermore make up funny new classifications like 'functional atheist' to try and convince you that you do too.  It was this experience coupled with an inability to provide substantive responses to the fallacies in the IPCC report  that left me disenchanted with the whole skeptical movement.  On the plus side, more time for me to spend working toward liberty in my lifetime.
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #145 on: August 09, 2008, 12:22:02 PM »

I guess you've never taken a spin over to the Skepticality or Skeptic's Guide threads.   Self styled atheists there purport to know with certainty that there is no god, and furthermore make up funny new classifications like 'functional atheist' to try and convince you that you do too.  It was this experience coupled with an inability to provide substantive responses to the fallacies in the IPCC report  that left me disenchanted with the whole skeptical movement.  On the plus side, more time for me to spend working toward liberty in my lifetime.

Well I've never encountered an atheist who claimed to know for a certainty, except maybe for instances where a supernatural belief would dispute facts in reality, such as a god who made a universe that was only 6,000 years old. This is provably incorrect. If you think the universe could be less than billions of years old then you don't understand how science works and you need to go look at the evidence. If you throw in a few caveats about, assuming god didn't make the universe 6,000 years ago and made it look like it was billions of years old, then I'm comfortable getting close to absolute certainty about logically impossible things.

Though in an abstract sense, anyone claiming absolute certainty is a retard.
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blackie

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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #146 on: August 09, 2008, 12:26:17 PM »

Well I've never encountered an atheist who claimed to know for a certainty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #147 on: August 09, 2008, 12:54:34 PM »

Well I've never encountered an atheist who claimed to know for a certainty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism

I'm not a complete simpleton. I know they exist, I'm just saying I've never met one. Also I make the distinction between absolute certainty. Under some criteria I believe there are no supernatural entities, but under an absolute one, I accept my knowledge and senses are too limited to make any absolute claim.
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #148 on: August 09, 2008, 03:01:54 PM »

It doesn't really matter how convinced you may be personally.  The fact is that the existence of god, gods, etc. is an untestable premise.  As such it does not fall under the preview of science.  No series of logical arguments could convincingly affirm or deny the premise.  Therefore the existence of god is not a rational question.  It seems to me most efficacious to investigate why people choose to irrationally believe, or irrationally disbelieve. 

In my experience, most disbelievers think themselves better, more rational, sometimes even more 'evolved' thinkers who have no need for the fairy-tales of the mindless masses.  Myself believing that all men are more or less equal, I see no reason to look down my nose at those who have had experiences they interpret as divine.  I have no reason to call them liars, and I know for a fact they aren't all stupid.    As I can neither prove nor disprove their claims, and have no inherent reason to doubt them, I feel the only intellectually honest course is to leave open the possibility in my mind.  To admit that I have no idea.
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Re: What is your Religion
« Reply #149 on: August 09, 2008, 08:17:47 PM »

Hey fatcat- what's good about this thread is that at least we aren't stuck discussing this stuff with christians only. Instead, it seems we have some of the more liberal representatives from various faiths..

If you divide them all up into teams, it seems no one is competing against each other really, it's just that all of them are focusing on the new guy on the field - us. We're at a disadvantage because we really don't understand the rules of their sport. It's curious to me that they aren't going after one another on topics of their faith, and that somehow they all think they each are believing in the "correct" god, but it's dandy if others believe in different gods.. just so long as a person believes in "some" god - it's a-okay! Just don't get caught believing in "no god" cause then you'd be some intolerant freak.

I'd like the various liberal representatives to answer a question-

Did Adam & Eve, or whoever the various first humans were in your storybook, have belly buttons? Yeah, it's a serious question.
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