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The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?

Limited Government Libertarian
- 75 (28.3%)
Minarchist
- 50 (18.9%)
Free Market Retributionist
- 33 (12.5%)
Free Market Reparationist
- 45 (17%)
Self Defense Libertarian
- 35 (13.2%)
Pacifist
- 9 (3.4%)
None of the Above
- 18 (6.8%)

Total Members Voted: 81


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Author Topic: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?  (Read 56295 times)

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Peppermint Pig

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2006, 06:55:36 AM »

I chose Self-Defense Libertarian, given the choices, and not knowing exactly what 'other' choice I would pick.

Quote
Heh, I think there are basically two categories. You can either be an anarchist or a statist. Anything inbetween is indecisive.

This is a valid argument in the light of questioning the existence of rights. If rights do exist, some form of state would be assumed, as would conceptualizing that people would, by default, be in agreement with those rights. If a Libertarian government wished to maintain a 'naturalist' governing structure, then why not dissolve into an anarcho-capitalist state, since the two would be very close to the same? One important difference would be in recognizing a synthesized version of natural law (statist), versus not requiring such a prerequisite (anarchist).

I don't find myself siding with Anarchism or Anarcho-Capitalism, as well meaning an ideal it is. Within either framework, mini governments, which would be perceived as private entities, could come into power: The Libertarian side of things would embrace such systems, hopefully up to and before they committed to acts of force (depending on crime/reparations law nuances) or attempted to overthrow the current system forcefully, while the anarchist philosophy would be inclined to (??) reject to such conglomeration as it would institute a 'state' of chaos. I just find Libertarianism to be more likely to succeed.

Ability being infinitely diverse: You may not have the ability to exercise all of your rights, but you may have the ability to infringe on the rights of others. Enforcing rights is a problem. Although I may be giving some lip service to the Anarcho-Capitalists, I find that there's always some level of recognition of the 'state' of the environment, whether a government is present or not, through the recognition of contract.

The root matter is individual sovereignty. I like the idea of a system that recognizes the individual in terms of defense against slavery, and ultimately coercion (even though such a system is not perfect and I don't totally agree with it philosophically, it appears to be a best-fit). For all other 'rights', it's simply a matter of 'fighting' for your rights, or engaging in the 'right', or should I say ability (?) to contract, which I think the Anarcho-Capitalists would be more inclined to side with. Private groups would be free to compete so the government not be the first group to address all problems.

Because Ian's currently in the Anarcho-Capitalism camp, Manwich is looking much more credible lately. :P
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eukreign

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2006, 12:09:27 PM »

Within either framework, mini governments, which would be perceived as private entities, could come into power: The Libertarian side of things would embrace such systems, hopefully up to and before they committed to acts of force (depending on crime/reparations law nuances) or attempted to overthrow the current system forcefully, while the anarchist philosophy would be inclined to (??) reject to such conglomeration as it would institute a 'state' of chaos. I just find Libertarianism to be more likely to succeed.

I don't see Anarchism as being against organization. In my mind Anarchism is simply against legitimizing of force. If you wanted to form a gated community, commune, mini government inside an anarcho-capitalist society there would be absolutely no problem there as long as each of the members enter into your contract voluntarily and they can leave even if it breaks the contract (because an individual cannot contract themselves into slavery). Basically the only thing the contract could do is dictate how they behave in your little society and if they don't abide by the contract you can kick them out, but you cannot force them to stay using the contract (at least in theory).

I think in practice though, there would be much looser contracts. For example a bunch of neighbors in a wide area may contract together to defend the area in case of invaders or whatever. There are many different angles to this and each community can adapt the system to their culture and preferred way of doing things.

Like minded individuals would like congregate in areas where things are done their way.

The problem I see today is that we have a lot of the same. So when you complain and someone says "Why don't you go somewhere else?" there really isn't anywhere else to go. If all of North America was Anarchist there would suddenly be a lot of very diverse societies because there is no longer a conformist central government molding people through the public school system.

Ability being infinitely diverse: You may not have the ability to exercise all of your rights, but you may have the ability to infringe on the rights of others. Enforcing rights is a problem. Although I may be giving some lip service to the Anarcho-Capitalists, I find that there's always some level of recognition of the 'state' of the environment, whether a government is present or not, through the recognition of contract.

Again, you seem to be thinking of Anarchy as the mean stream definition which leads to chaos and what not. When in fact there is probably more order in an Anarchist society than in our current society, for one simple reason: In Anarchy you are required to be more responsible and cautious in life, while in statism you can rely on government to get you out of trouble if you screw up by forcing banks to forgive your debts and giving you money if you loose your job, etc.


The root matter is individual sovereignty. I like the idea of a system that recognizes the individual in terms of defense against slavery, and ultimately coercion (even though such a system is not perfect and I don't totally agree with it philosophically, it appears to be a best-fit). For all other 'rights', it's simply a matter of 'fighting' for your rights, or engaging in the 'right', or should I say ability (?) to contract, which I think the Anarcho-Capitalists would be more inclined to side with. Private groups would be free to compete so the government not be the first group to address all problems.

Government protects you from slavery by enslaving you itself. You should have realized this by now. You work so that you can pay your taxes, if you stop working men with guns will come and take your property because you couldn't pay the property taxes. That is slavery.

I recommend that you read this:

http://www.mises.org/story/1970 The Nature of Man and His Government
http://www.mises.org/story/1987 Society Needs No Managers

Examples of Anarcho-Capitalist societies

http://www.mises.org/story/1121 Medieval Iceland and the Absence of Government
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/long1.html Privatization, Viking Style: Model or Misfortune?
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Iceland/Iceland.html Private Creation and Enforcement of Law: A Historical Case
http://www.mises.org/rothbard/newliberty11.asp The Public Sector, III: Police, Law, and the Courts
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BenTucker

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2006, 12:53:26 PM »

Quote
The problem I see today is that we have a lot of the same. So when you complain and someone says "Why don't you go somewhere else?" there really isn't anywhere else to go. If all of North America was Anarchist there would suddenly be a lot of very diverse societies because there is no longer a conformist central government molding people through the public school system.

the Second Vermont Republic is proposing to devolve all state power back to the face to face, human scale direct democracy within a deliberative body (town meeting) then confederate up to shire "ward" republics (2-3 contiguous towns) based on bio-regions where the shires would have legislators (reeves) that would represent no more than 300-500 people with immediate rights of recall. (see "The Vermont Papers")

http://www.chelseagreen.com/2006/items/vermontpapers

so as an individual you could act as your own citizen legislator at annual town meeting and then actually KNOW and INTERACT with your elected reeves...

if you didn't like the way things were running in the shire you live in - move to one of the other 40 shires proposed for Vermont.
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Peppermint Pig

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2006, 11:34:59 AM »

Quote
I don't see Anarchism as being against organization. In my mind Anarchism is simply against legitimizing of force. If you wanted to form a gated community, commune, mini government inside an anarcho-capitalist society there would be absolutely no problem there as long as each of the members enter into your contract voluntarily and they can leave even if it breaks the contract (because an individual cannot contract themselves into slavery). Basically the only thing the contract could do is dictate how they behave in your little society and if they don't abide by the contract you can kick them out, but you cannot force them to stay using the contract (at least in theory).
I tend to get confused with matters of anarchism as it applies to claim. It is nice to know you believe Anarchy can work by resisting the legitimizing of force, though I don't see everyone following along with that sentiment in the application of an Anarchic society. I agree with some of what you are saying though. Is there a difference between the legitimizing of force versus force applied itself? As they say, might makes right...

Quote
Again, you seem to be thinking of Anarchy as the mean stream definition which leads to chaos and what not. When in fact there is probably more order in an Anarchist society than in our current society, for one simple reason: In Anarchy you are required to be more responsible and cautious in life, while in statism you can rely on government to get you out of trouble if you screw up by forcing banks to forgive your debts and giving you money if you loose your job, etc.
Yes... I agree with the ideal of anarchism but it's different in practice. Order or perhaps efficiency in an Anarchy may be better than current society since there is no need to adhere to a relatively static system of law and governing which brings about economic/moral/etc deficits with those who take advantage of the power positions created through the bureaucracy. Hard pressed to disagree with what you are saying here... I don't see a reason why a government needs to bail people out for their mistakes, and would rather the government be funded voluntarily. That said, the question becomes 'what do we really need government for anyways?'. I certainly won't say roads, judges, police, or a postal service... while I can see private solutions for some of these, I'd say certain global tolerance threshold issues (WMDs, maybe some pollution issues) or a complementary national defense might be something I would consider, given the current state of the world and the likelihood of Libertarianism or Anarchism's fruition.

Quote
Government protects you from slavery by enslaving you itself. You should have realized this by now. You work so that you can pay your taxes, if you stop working men with guns will come and take your property because you couldn't pay the property taxes. That is slavery.
No doubt. The majority of people are captive to trade, so debting is an unavoidable state for some in the ebb and flow of the economy, but on top of that we have an increasing band of thugs taking a slice for themselves and playing on this ebb and flow.

Thanks for the reading material. Gone through some of it.
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eukreign

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2006, 01:04:10 PM »

I certainly won't say roads, judges, police, or a postal service... while I can see private solutions for some of these, I'd say certain global tolerance threshold issues (WMDs, maybe some pollution issues) or a complementary national defense might be something I would consider, given the current state of the world and the likelihood of Libertarianism or Anarchism's fruition.

More reading material...

DEFENSE SERVICES ON THE FREE MARKET - one chapter from Rothbards book Man, Economy & State
The Myth of National Defense - short discussion of the actual book The Myth of National Defense, you can also download the entire book in PDF fromat here.
The National Defense Myth - another article about the same book
Privateering and National Defense: Naval Warfare for Private Profit PDF
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Peppermint Pig

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2006, 03:01:02 PM »

Haha, you know that was my weakest arguement!  :lol:

My definition of national defense would be something akin to rent-a-tank. There would be military equipment and vehicles stored on a lot, much like the National Guard, but given to individuals or militia during times of war or emergency with rated experience/simulation hours as recognized by whichever private organizations were keeping track.

I understand that the decentralization of government into an Anarchy makes for a less appealing target to foreign and domestic agressors, and that the private sector could take over the military equipment aspect. In the case of large scale invasions, I think the government is something that should be fallen back upon, but it wouldn't look anything like the one we have today. Again, I think it should be voluntarily funded. I agree with you, but I'm falling short of letting go of the government body as the superstructure recognizing national territory. :P

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spicynujac

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2006, 12:14:16 PM »

Self Defense Libertarian, although I also want them out of my life / business and cut down to almost nothing.
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moar

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2006, 11:08:08 PM »

Easily a limited government libertarian. The government should hold the role of enforcing laws based on widely agreed-upon general principles and dealing with national matters such as trade, diplomatic relations and mantaining the military. States and cities would be able to regulate and impose laws based on issues that fall out of the bounds of national law. This should be done using public courts with a panel of judges locally elected with a proportional representation system as well as public police agencies wherein local citizens are shareholders. There should be a strong military; one that can project force and put the Chavezes and Ahmadinejads of the world in their place or otherwise play an interventionist role.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 11:28:05 PM by moar »
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Puke

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2006, 11:15:00 PM »

I'm a nacho cheese flavored libertarian.

Mmm...nachos.
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salty

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2006, 12:17:12 PM »

 :idea:
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eukreign

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2006, 04:58:18 PM »

Easily a limited government libertarian. The government should hold the role of enforcing laws based on widely agreed-upon general principles and dealing with national matters such as trade, diplomatic relations and mantaining the military.

You mean like two wolves and a sheep agreeing on what to have for dinner?
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moar

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2006, 06:16:28 PM »

You mean like two wolves and a sheep agreeing on what to have for dinner?

Or a loose framework for a cohesive nation-state that ensures human rights, liberty, free markets and free trade.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 06:20:29 PM by moar »
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Peppermint Pig

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2006, 07:44:02 PM »

You mean like two wolves and a sheep agreeing on what to have for dinner?

Or a loose framework for a cohesive nation-state that ensures human rights, liberty, free markets and free trade.
Rights require some serious consideration on how they are supported/enforced, which is the downside to the state. Rights are not magical: If the rights of group A come from the Rights of group B, then group B is likely not going to appreciate said Rights.

We supposedly wouldn't need outlined rights in a state situation if everyone got along... and then comes Anarchy/Anarcho-Capitalism suggesting a non-coersive way of life devoid of any rights. In such a system, you would be free to enter into any of the myriad of protection services providing what we would comparably sight as 'Rights', though those granting the rights would recognize the person who was paying for them on the individual level, which is one of the stronger arguements for Anarcho-Capitalism.

However 'Natural Law' is something to be interpreted, and I find that this is a notable flaw in the Anarcho-Capitalist philosophy as eukreign has presented it. That doesn't mean a small Libertarian Government is going to do any better to resolve the matter, as it often ends up coming down to a democratic/dictatorial decree of what human rights shall be set forth, but if you're intent on recognizing any boundaries, then I favor Libertarianism over Anarchy.

As they say, when people fear the government, it's tyrrany. While a government which the people do not fear may still be the source of injustices via democratic procedure, I find that the arguements for Anarcho-Capitalism I have heard so far cling to presumptuously humanist doctrine (yet I find it hard to argue with this). That said, tyrrany need not come from a government body, and a well endearerd Anarchic environment can do just as good as a well endeared Libertarianism. But conversely, both are easily capable of injustice so long as people cling to principles (and I hope people cling fast).
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rabidfurby

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2006, 07:55:16 PM »

That said, tyrrany need not come from a government body, and a well endearerd Anarchic environment can do just as good as a well endeared Libertarianism.

How can it be tyrannical if at any point you can say "screw you guys, I'm going home"?

If the people are being "oppressed" in an anarcho-capitalist society, they will simply choose not to associate with their "oppressors". The only way you can have oppression is if someone is forcibly preventing you from removing yourself from that oppression. The second that happens, you've left the realm of anarchy and now have a government.
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Peppermint Pig

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2006, 09:19:12 PM »

Quote
How can it be tyrannical if at any point you can say "screw you guys, I'm going home"?

If the people are being "oppressed" in an anarcho-capitalist society, they will simply choose not to associate with their "oppressors". The only way you can have oppression is if someone is forcibly preventing you from removing yourself from that oppression. The second that happens, you've left the realm of anarchy and now have a government.

Because you might not be able to 'go home'.

The freedom for a person to move goes hand in hand with the freedom for the jerks and opressive people to move right along with them until it no longer becomes 'worth it' to them. Given this, I'm sure there might be a few people sadistic enough to choose to oppress their neighbors, in both subtle and apparent ways, even to the point of slavery. That's not to say what we have now doesn't bite. It does, alot, and there are still issues with a small Libertarian type of government that could remain.

In the proceedings of Anarchy, there's no guarantee that you will be free since not everyone will conform to principles of anarchy. Mini-governments add structure to those who seek them, and are acceptable to Anarchists so long as those who engage in them are all consenting. But what of crime and justice where one seeks protection services from another, and a third party is harmed through the actions of enforcing the agreement between the first two individuals because that third party attempted to apply force? it coincides with what is 'liberal', in which there is freedom for all to apply force, despite the consequences.

Of course it's no longer Anarchy when someone chooses to live on a foundation of oppression and force, but if that's the case, then you can simply say that Anarchy works, so long as you're not pointing out the cases in which circumstances directly related, but never affirmed as 'failures', are not working in its favor. Anarchy is an adorable concept that continues to remain true, but it disassociates itself from the very real and very negative aspects of life that are present in virtually all situations. There will always be death and some measure of 'cost-of-living' that will place strain on people and not everyone will concede to not apply force.

I would concede that we'll all be better off if either Anarcho-Capitalism or Libertarianism within a small government structure come into being. It's always been a fault to let others decide for us and assume power. But please help me understand the need for protection services in an Anarchy, and how it is that everyone is to recognize and agree to the right to property without using some measure of force to make such a claim?
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